2023 Asian & PanAm Champs (not Games!)

[Elle]

That's a nice video from WH about Tian Tao's clean and jerk attempts:



In your opinion what is the reason for the fail at 222 first attempt?

[Hawkpeter]

I am guessing Huanhua competing at Worlds at 89 will be dependent on how well he does with internal events in the next few months.

I was thinking the same thing, I want to think that there is clear criteria within a country about strategic team choices, but the mind boggles at what domestic chinese politics must be like between provinces.

That's a nice video from WH about Tian Tao's clean and jerk attempts:

In your opinion what is the reason for the fail at 222 first attempt?

I hate to sound cynical but I feel like Tian Tao has about a 33% chance of any C&J between 210 and 230. The strategy of just putting enough on the bar and giving him multiple chances is actually pretty sound.

[strapping]

In your opinion what is the reason for the fail at 222 first attempt?

He was disconnected from the bar and tried too much to get under it, rather than finishing the jerk (combined drive+catch). This meant the bar pushed back on him whilst he had no tension in his body the support the bar.

Last jerk, he stayed connected to the bar, actively fixated the bar with the upper body and maintained tension through the entire body, even as he was tipping forward.

however the real reason is that he's just heart attack tao who rolled bad RNG in the 2nd attempt and then tried harder (+good rng) in the 3rd.

-

In snatches, he's overly reliant on leg strength and dives under the bar too much (has always done so). But back in 2015-2018, he had superior connection to the bar compared to now.
His misses are always similar - he tightens up the arms in anticipation for getting under the bar, but never finishes the pull properly in order to potentiate the third pull. There is never a lack of bar height but when he misses, his finish and fixation is tight/slow where it needs to be relaxed and fast, and relaxed/fast where it needs to be tightened and slowed.

It's not the small thumbs/hands that's the issue, I have met exactly one person who can't get a reasonable hookgrip (his thumb was approx 2cm long, total). If his hookgrip was an issue, we wouldn't see his rather explosive second pull.

I think that given his long torso and relative muscular development (struggling on 90kg presses etc), he is probably also relatively weak in the abs/pecs/serratus which forces him into a very leaned forward position. If he catches too upright, everything is unstable and he loses it. That and disconnection from the bar are IMO the primary reasons for his heart attack behaviour in both snatches and jerks.



Another contributing factor (I suspect) is that the Chinese national men's team simply doesn't place much emphasis on sport training. We have to take it with a grain of salt, but from what we have seen of the Chinese men's team, they only practise actual weightlifting 2-3x per week. More than half of their training is general preparatory training.

For example, Liao Hui snatched and C+J'd twice a week in both Winter (general prep) and Summer (comp prep) in 2013, if you exclude straight leg snatches as a minor accessory exercise. Lyu Xiaojun in his short-lived comeback started out snatching 1-2x a week (one week was zero times). There are more examples to dig up.

This works for some lifters (e.g. Liu Huanhua probably) who have maximal strength as a main issue, but I'd question its efficacy for people who squat 3201988kg and are inconsistent in their classic lifts. It also happens to be very similar to how many Chinese coaches program for amateur athletes, coincidentally.

I was thinking the same thing, I want to think that there is clear criteria within a country about strategic team choices, but the mind boggles at what domestic chinese politics must be like between provinces.

Provincial Chinese politics is extensive.

I hate to sound cynical but I feel like Tian Tao has about a 33% chance of any C&J between 210 and 230. The strategy of just putting enough on the bar and giving him multiple chances is actually pretty sound.

I agree, 210 opener, take whatever you need to win on your 2nd/3rd.

[Hawkpeter]

In your opinion what is the reason for the fail at 222 first attempt?

It's not the small thumbs/hands that's the issue, I have met exactly one person who can't get a reasonable hookgrip (his thumb was approx 2cm long, total). If his hookgrip was an issue, we wouldn't see his rather explosive second pull.

I think that given his long torso and relative muscular development (struggling on 90kg presses etc), he is probably also relatively weak in the abs/pecs/serratus which forces him into a very leaned forward position. If he catches too upright, everything is unstable and he loses it. That and disconnection from the bar are IMO the primary reasons for his heart attack behaviour in both snatches and jerks.

I've speculated about this hand size issue as well and that its a ruse. I think HE thinks it is, because my perception is that when he misses a snatch he immediately looks at this hands and seems to want to indicate that his thumb has slipped. But take a look at how much thumb tape he uses! Its half a roll on each thumb. I think his flip-it-fast-and-throw-your-head forward technique just isn't good, and the easiest thing to do is blame the hands because its easy to look around and see peers who might have hands that are slightly bigger. For a guy who even in 89kg form probably squats 290kg a 165 snatch isn't great.

Regarding the overhead strength, not for the first time, the comparison of Chinese lifters and their opponents has stood out. People gasped at how weak Lu's presses were and Tao equally has some pretty weak presses. Compare that to guys like Lesman who for a long armed guy has very very good overhead pressing ability - it appears there might be a blind spot for the Chinese men.

[strapping]

I've speculated about this hand size issue as well and that its a ruse. I think HE thinks it is, because my perception is that when he misses a snatch he immediately looks at this hands and seems to want to indicate that his thumb has slipped. But take a look at how much thumb tape he uses! Its half a roll on each thumb. I think his flip-it-fast-and-throw-your-head forward technique just isn't good, and the easiest thing to do is blame the hands because its easy to look around and see peers who might have hands that are slightly bigger. For a guy who even in 89kg form probably squats 290kg a 165 snatch isn't great.

(conjecture ahead)

Something that I believe exacerbates the issue is his lack of shoulder extension/scapular downward rotation strength (lats, pecs maj/min, rhomboids etc.).

In order to keep the bar close, he then has to row it in, causing increased use of his elbow flexors and therefore forearms during the pull. That could possibly make gripping harder. I don't think that "when the arms bend, the power ends", but I do believe that it increases demands on the grippers.
Anecdotally, the lifters who have the feeling of a weak hook grip also bend their arms in the pull.

Regarding the overhead strength, not for the first time, the comparison of Chinese lifters and their opponents has stood out. People gasped at how weak Lu's presses were and Tao equally has some pretty weak presses. Compare that to guys like Lesman who for a long armed guy has very very good overhead pressing ability - it appears there might be a blind spot for the Chinese men.

(also conjecture based off hazy memory)

I believe that they didn't train strict or bench presses for a long time (beyond a beginner child level) under the notion that it would cause them to stiffen and "press" their jerks.

I don't believe they're necessarily weak overhead per se. I personally break this down by dividing overhead strength into the

• anterior overhead system (hip flexors, abs, serratus anterior, pec major, anterior deltoids, triceps)
• posterior overhead system (cervical/thoracic extensors, all parts of trapezius, lateral and rear deltoids.)

Yes, it's not entirely inaccurate, that's fine.

The Chinese appear to emphasise "posterior" overhead strength in the snatch and jerk. Head well in front, bar well behind. Subsequently, there is a lot of muscular development in the cervical/thoracic extensors, middle and lower traps, lateral and rear deltoids. I think part of this is due to a desire to avoid using the pecs/arms. Another part of it is probably due to natural convergence towards emphasising those muscle groups as they are also used/trained in the snatch/clean.

The Chinese are still muscular in the pecs, anterior deltoids, serratus anterior and abs due to their GPP. However it typically appears to be low load, low muscular tension training with the stimulus coming from high training volumes (e.g. 6 sets of 8-20 reps). I don't share the opinion that kipping pullups and dumbbell rows primarily driven by the legs/obliques are substantial "power training" (not any more than doing them strictly with less weight).

As a result, they appear not to be particularly strong in those muscles despite their size, especially in the context of sport training. This isn't unique to China of course, I've met 190kg jerkers who couldn't strict press 65kg.

I think doing strict presses may be helpful, but I do wonder if the weaknesses don't also continue down the kinetic chain.

Side note, would speculate that rushing to get the arms in the jerk, when not for mental/technical reasons, often happens due to poor front rack strength/transfer of leg drive into the bar. In rare circumstances, a lack of leg strength (maximal or specific strength) can also make a lifter tend towards early arm drive.

[strapping]

102B
I didn't watch this live as I was busy doing some work. Just skipped to these two lifters.

MOCHIDA Ryunosuke JPN 162/172x/172x, 200x/200/220x

MORADI Sohrab IRI both surprised me and did what I expected. All high power snatches with an understandably wobbly overhead position, 157 (quarter sq) / 161 (third depth) / 166x (similar depth).

Jerk 200 (easy clean, powerful but wobbly jerk), 210x (not a bad attempt, but a miss), 221 for qualification (382) which he timed out on because no fucking way is he jerking that.

[erpel]

What chickenshit:



Why not go in the B group with Moradi etc.? What a waste.

[strapping]

M102A recap
I didn't watch this live, watched the VOD. Busy with life and to be honest, my expectation from yesterday was that M102 was more likely to be disappointing than interesting.

This comment is written as I watch the VOD, so I may miss scoreboard shenanigans.

As mentioned, PARADES COLuh, BRN and ELBAKH QAT pulled out > 5 min after the athlete introduction. Not surprising, but still disappointing. We (or I) saw nothing from either of them in the training hall.

Qualifying total is technically 382, but one was a 96kg and the other was an 89 cosplaying as a 96.

Snatches

RASULBEKOV Bekdoolot KGZ opens on 164 and doesn't quite stay connected.
DEHDAR Reza IRI opens on 166, casual lift.
RASULBEKOV Bekdoolot KGZ takes 169 for his 2nd attempt and pulls overhead, but no connection or fixation. Not helped by the wide grip.
He takes it again for the 3rd attempt and gives up as it reaches his knees.
DEHDAR Reza jumps up to 172. He pulls the bar and dives under but the bar lands in the pocket and folds his legs rather than his body. This doesn't look physically maximal, but without better connection he's not making more than 173.

173kg is loaded for the opener of ADILETULY Nurgissa KAZ , who makes it easily as expected.
DAVRANBEK Hasanbayev TKM is next on 173, with a slow pull and a fast catch to secure his opener.
CHEN Po-Jen TPE is the third opener on 173, cuts the pull a bit and catches it a bit wobbly. Lucky the judges OR jury didn't punish the micromovement.

The bar is then loaded to 175 for the opener of JANG Yeonhak KOR. Nice smooth opener, maybe a little bit wobbly but good rhythm.
His compatriot JIN Yunseong also opens on 175. I'm told he had a back injury (hence not competing at World's last year). 175 moves very well for an excellently chosen opener.

DAVRANBEK Hasanbayev TKM then takes 177 (2nd), pulling slow to the knees but nailing the finish/turnover into a very deep, locked squat.
178 is loaded for Nurgissa ADILETULY, 2nd attempt. Again, good rhythm, nice and casual.
CHEN Po-Jen TPE is the next lifter to take 178. He pulls strongly but is wobbly as hell overhead, again lucky to be given that with the outrageous judging standards that have become the norm since 2021.

179 is then loaded for JANG Yeonhak KOR. Strong pull, slight disconnect and crash in the bottom but the elbow wobble is small and he gets three whites.
DEHDAR Reza takes 179 and actually pulls the bar for the first time this competition, but tried a little too hard to jump under and it loops round the back, no lift.

180 (the beginning of bigboi weights) is loaded for JIN Yunseong KOR, 2nd attempt. Good pull but lacked the finish to actively fix the bar in the bottom position and he just barely loses it in front.
DAVRANBEK Hasanbayev TKM is then out for his final attempt on 180. He does a difficult deadlift to the knees, keeps pulling up and then fucking teleports under, getting a little unsettled but holding on for a fantastic third attempt.

Final attempt for JIN Yunseong KOR on 180. He remembered how to lift, good lift. Wasted second attempt, should have done 183.

To one up him, 181 goes on the bar for ADILETULY Nurgissa KAZ, final attempt. He sneaks under it and manages to hold it despite shakiness. Strong but sloppy. Again, 102A session lucky with refs today.

CHEN Po-Jen TPE takes 181 (3rd) which doesn't look likely given his difficulty with 178. However, he can make it if he tries a bit harder. Pulls much stronger and turns it over properly, much more solid in the catch. Celebrates a little early as he stands up and one elbow has a flicker, but refs/jury are chill today. Three whites, I would have hated for it to be taken away anyway.

182 is loaded for the final attempt of JANG Yeonhak KOR. He lifts the bar off the ground and just keeps pulling, for a good lift. Nice lift, luckily no Tokyo jury.
---

Clean and Jerk

DAVRANBEK Hasanbayev TKM opens the session with 192. Fairly hard clean, widens his grip and sneaks under the jerk. Looks like he's capable of a little more in the clean and a fair bit more in the jerk, but not if he tries to jerk without lifting the bar.
2nd attempt on 197, which he can't quite stand up as it folds him forward. He takes it again, staying much more active in receiving and rebounding up, flexing his back slightly to ease his legs and barely grind through the quadriceps sticking point. He dips and half drives but there's no force or length to the leg drive, no lift on the jerk. Total 372.

CHEN Po-Jen TPE opens on 203, good clean but wobbly ass wide ass jerk, 2-1 given somehow (bro didn't even have a down signal) but jury overturn.
DEHDAR Reza IRI takes 204 for a good clean and a soft power jerk but he's strong enough to make it work.
CHEN Po-Jen goes up to 205, 2nd attempt. Cuts the pull on the clean and stumbles forward as a result, but still stood up strongly and easily. Good jerk drive and fixation but loses his composure and celebrates too early, becoming wobbly and losing it forward as he recovers his feet.
Wait 2 minutes, final attempt for Chen. Same clean, same jerk except he remembers to hold it overhead this time and narrowly avoids kaboom. CHEN totals 386.

RASULBEKOV Bekdoolot KGZ opens on 208, easy clean. Army jerk with stumpy split but strong enough to hold overhead. Discount Vardanian in pull and jerk style.

210 opener for JANG Yeonhak KOR. Poor finish to the pull, enough height but catches him forward causing him to bouncy bounce the clean. No dice on the jerk. Strong, but very sloppy and not my choice of opener for him.
Same weight on the bar for the opener of ADILETULY Nurgissa KAZ, who does an ok last warm up. Not outstanding technically, but strong and easy.

JANG Yeonhak KOR does a cut and shitty pull again, bouncy bouncy bounce up for a harder clean this time. Kinda half jerks it to overhead with no active fixation but the bar remains overhead despite the several elbow wobbles, Jinju judges give it to him.

211 is then loaded for DEHDAR REZA, who does a hard but good clean. He then remembered that the jerk is in the sport weightlifting and subsequently drove and fixated the bar for a much better jerk than his opener.

JIN Yunseong is last to open, on 213. Strong pull but very stiff. The bar crashes on him and he has to reset in the bottom, making the stand difficult. Good dip but short leg drive and snuck under stiffly with the arms - he looks capable of a lot more, but this attempt looked nervous and wonky.

Another 1kg increase to the bar, 214 for the 2nd attempt of Bekdoolot RASULBEKOV KGZ. Again budget Vardanian, including bendy soft-ish back leg in the jerk.

You guessed it, 215 for the 2nd attempt of ADILETULY Nurgissa. Strong first pull but does a disconnected dive under, standing up quickly but clearly dizzy and losing balance. Again, he dips well but has a short drive with the arms too early to sneak under, wobbly around but regaining balance for a good lift.

216 for the final attempt of JANG Yeonhak KOR. He finishes his extension properly this time but remains disconnected from the bar and didn't actively receive it, getting spat out the back. No lift, JANG ends on a total of 392.

RASULBEKOV then goes for 217 as we creep up kilo by kilo. Pulls the bar high but yeets himself under it a bit, crashing the bar into a poorer rack position. He takes a few breaths, dips and drives slightly longer, slightly later and better connected arm drive with enough tension to hold onto the bar as he corrects his imbalance in the split. Good lift, perhaps the most solid overhead of the three lifts. RASULBEKOV finishes on 381.

218 for JIN Yunseong, 2nd attempt. Much better finish to the clean this time, so he rides the bounce up to stand up more easily. Dips and drives a bit longer with the legs and the arms coming in not quite as (too) early, resulting in a delayed fixation and elbow flicker. Relaxed referees give 2-1 good lift.

219, final attempt for ADILETULY Nurgissa. Deadlift 2nd pull yeet under but as the bar is heavier and lower, there's actually less crash, so standing up is easier. Jerk is slightly better with more use of the legs to a good lock, though losing a bit of tension (elbow flicker) as the feet are recovered. 3 white lights from the unconcerned umpires. ADILETULY finishes on 400kg.

Iranian attempt selection moment, 10kg jump for Reza DEHDAR on 221. Sticky pull, crash down, paused difficult front squat clean. Short and flaccid jerk drive, no lift. DEHDAR finishes on 383.

For the first time in 7 lifts, the bar remains on the same weight. 221 for the final attempt of JIN Yunseong KOR in front of his home crowd. Strong start to the pull but a soft finish and 221 pins him in the bottom, no bouncing can get him out. JIN finishes on 398kg to take the Korean slot.

----
102kg Top 11 ranking post Asians, pre drug testing
1. 400kg KAZ ADILETULY Nurgissa
2. 398kg KOR JIN Yunseong
3. 397kg BRN PAREDES Lesman
4. 392kg ARM KARAPETYAN Garik
5. 391kg QAT ELBAKH Fares (nickname Meso Hassona)
6. 390kg IRI DEHDAR Reza
7. 388kg KGZ RASULBEKOV Bekdoolot
8. 387kg GEO CHKEIDZE Irakli
9. 386kg TPE CHEN Po-Jen
10. 385kg CHN LIU Huanhua (bw 89.43kg, possibly forfeiting the spot).
11. 381kg ESP RUIZ Marcos


Opinions
From an Olympic qualification and historical standing of the class standpoint, this was a disappointment.
If you're only there to piss in a cup, enter the B session and don't disrupt the show.

The general standard of lifting is reasonable but not outstanding from a historical standpoint (taking into account not pissing lava). However, a 400kg total being #1 rank and contingent on testing given KAZ track record, is pretty disappointing for M102kg when comparing to history.

Having said that, as a standalone competition, this was actually much more enjoyable than I expected. Tightly clustered attempt selection in both snatches and clean and jerks.

PAREDES BRN is an unknown quantity, I haven't seen any lifting from him since 2022 Worlds. University graduation though, pop off.
ELBAKH has been declining since 2019 and now has Russia 2015 technique with less maximal strength than he had before. Actually competing may have actually been more disappointing than pulling out. I like the dude but his lifting is going backwards fast.

I hope rather than the Asians being reprimanded, the judging standard for other continentals becomes a free for all. I just think that would be funny.

[This is not a 102kg or Asian-specific problem]
When will weightlifters learn that maximum width grip is not a good idea just because of "efficiency of height"? Any idiot can use a ruler and a calculator.
Lifters still have to fix the bar overhead - the wider your grip, the harder it is to stay connected in the second pull, turnover AND to fixate and stabilise the bar. These factors are true independently, and also contribute sequentially to failure. Most people shouldn't medium or clean grip snatch in competition, but the bar shouldn't be shaving off the top of your hair either.
From an athlete and coach perspective: In a world with increasingly power tripping, invasive and disruptive refereeing and jury stops, instability should be removed as much as reasonably possible. The lifters were lucky to have very chill refs/jury in *this* session, as some other sessions at Asians still had the micromovement police.

I didn't watch 109A as I was busy and now I'm tired. Ruslan Nurudinov UZB did 177+228. He doesn't look injured, but does look significantly weaker.
5-6% loss since 2021 is a sizable decrease that doesn't look like just aging. Maybe he's had a break.
Or maybe he's realised that retirement is imminent - either quickly by the hand of the ITA; or slowly by hopping off the bike (earlier or generally) and totalling less until he eventually gets replaced.

DAVRANBEK Hasanbayev TKM will be mentioned in the competition report as one of Charniga's muscleless wonders. Part of me wishes he had some hamstrings to make the most of his leverages and fucking send it in the snatch, rather than the recent Turkmenistan trend of having a sticking point in the snatch pull. Part of me also wants to see him clean and jerk more than he snatches, which in fairness, a better pull/finish may help him achieve. Man's gotta be a super, in due course.

OLYMPIC CHAMPION BEATEN BY SEVEN LIFTERS WOW

[erpel]

I will append my earlier comments with regards to M102 with the notion that it lacks a standout performance (by one or multiple people).

As you correctly demonstrated with the temporary ranking, the class is populated and competitive. Just not in the same way M73 and M89 are. If we take the aforementioned two Olympic categories, the M102 upper echelons should rank around 415-420.

M61 (base) - 318 (base)
M73 (19.7%) - 364 (14.5%)
M89 (21.9%) - 396 (8.8%)
M102 (14.6%) - 416 (5.1%) [M96 total as placeholder)

M109 (22.5%) - 435 (9.8%) [M89 reference]

Even if we account for Shi Z. being more of an outlier than Li Fabin and adjust the WR numbers a bit* we still have an uneven distribution. Although it has to be remarked that the "original sin" certainly are the unscientific category jumps. For this quad ideally we'd roughly see jumps of 20% body weight respond to a 10% increase in totals. This would've worked much better if 109 had stayed Olympic.

*peak Chen Lijun @ 61 = 327

[Hawkpeter]

(conjecture ahead)

Something that I believe exacerbates the issue is his lack of shoulder extension/scapular downward rotation strength (lats, pecs maj/min, rhomboids etc.).

In order to keep the bar close, he then has to row it in, causing increased use of his elbow flexors and therefore forearms during the pull. That could possibly make gripping harder. I don't think that "when the arms bend, the power ends", but I do believe that it increases demands on the grippers.
Anecdotally, the lifters who have the feeling of a weak hook grip also bend their arms in the pull.


(also conjecture based off hazy memory)

I believe that they didn't train strict or bench presses for a long time (beyond a beginner child level) under the notion that it would cause them to stiffen and "press" their jerks.

I don't believe they're necessarily weak overhead per se. I personally break this down by dividing overhead strength into the

• anterior overhead system (hip flexors, abs, serratus anterior, pec major, anterior deltoids, triceps)
• posterior overhead system (cervical/thoracic extensors, all parts of trapezius, lateral and rear deltoids.)

Yes, it's not entirely inaccurate, that's fine.

The Chinese appear to emphasise "posterior" overhead strength in the snatch and jerk. Head well in front, bar well behind. Subsequently, there is a lot of muscular development in the cervical/thoracic extensors, middle and lower traps, lateral and rear deltoids. I think part of this is due to a desire to avoid using the pecs/arms. Another part of it is probably due to natural convergence towards emphasising those muscle groups as they are also used/trained in the snatch/clean.

The Chinese are still muscular in the pecs, anterior deltoids, serratus anterior and abs due to their GPP. However it typically appears to be low load, low muscular tension training with the stimulus coming from high training volumes (e.g. 6 sets of 8-20 reps). I don't share the opinion that kipping pullups and dumbbell rows primarily driven by the legs/obliques are substantial "power training" (not any more than doing them strictly with less weight).

As a result, they appear not to be particularly strong in those muscles despite their size, especially in the context of sport training. This isn't unique to China of course, I've met 190kg jerkers who couldn't strict press 65kg.

I think doing strict presses may be helpful, but I do wonder if the weaknesses don't also continue down the kinetic chain.

Side note, would speculate that rushing to get the arms in the jerk, when not for mental/technical reasons, often happens due to poor front rack strength/transfer of leg drive into the bar. In rare circumstances, a lack of leg strength (maximal or specific strength) can also make a lifter tend towards early arm drive.

Conjecture on my part - I think 'the Chinese' (there I go grouping together the biggest WL nation in the world) conceptualise a distal to proximal fixation of the snatch. They're not big advocates of stomping their feet into the platform, they actively teach a 'slide', and they don't overhead press to any serious degree, they work on elbow extensors (dips, light banded elbow extensions).

They also probably cast adrift any kid who has a noticeable carrying angle of the elbow so early in the piece that the kid never picks up a bar.

I like your analytical framework for an anterior and posterior overhead system - the elephant in the room is the ever present humeral rotation flame war which your categorisation trespasses on. I agree that Tian Tao seems to utilise a downward scapular rotation/cervical flexion method, which brings me to:

Squat jerkers and Power Jerkers.

It isn't a big cohort, so now I'm conjecturing completely out of my arse here, but I have wondered whether squat jerkers gain stability in the snatch by the number of very heavy extra reps they take performing squat jerks, and then are to an extent able to export it over - Lu being the obvious example. However, power jerkers, the benefit seems to help certain body types only with their snatch, long arm/leg lifters with shorter trunks, like Jhonatan Rivas, Li Dayin, CJ Cummings ( I believe his snatch improved as he started power jerking), whilst the shorter armed lifters like Tian Tao and David Benzhanyan it negatively effects their snatch due to the variables that are introduced in getting under the bar.