Weightlifting Forums

Yet again I'm left to make a sweeping generalization, 'The Armenian team can snatch but they can't clean and jerk.'

A) Is this an accurate observation (am I paying too much attention to outliers)?
B) How can this happen to an entire team (they do have pretty sizable men's teams)?

Hawkpeter wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 9:34 pm Yet again I'm left to make a sweeping generalization, 'The Armenian team can snatch but they can't clean and jerk.'
A) Is this an accurate observation (am I paying too much attention to outliers)?

This is something I and others have noticed.. Most Armenians can snatch, regardless of whether they have conventional movement or not.

In terms of the clean and jerk, some of them are excellent jerkers (e.g. Vardanian and Vardanian) and some are terrible (e.g. Alex Karapetyan)
There seems to be little in between, though that might be a bias towards not remembering boring things.

Hawkpeter wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 9:34 pm B) How can this happen to an entire team (they do have pretty sizable men's teams)?

As you have noted, the Armenian weightlifting culture has no notion of self-preservation.
But beyond that, I don't know. It's a mystery. I've asked people in the Armenian system, they don't know either.

Maybe the question should be phrased as, 'why are Armenians such good snatchers?'

I dont know why either. I wonder if there is a programming bias that has become deeply ingrained in the culture.

Hawkpeter wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 11:38 pm Maybe the question should be phrased as, 'why are Armenians such good snatchers?'

I dont know why either. I wonder if there is a programming bias that has become deeply ingrained in the culture.

1. Their pulling technique hasn't devolved since the Soviet days like Russia, China etc. Not fetishising quads (e.g. China, Indonesia) or back/hips/flat footedness (e.g. Russia 2015). There are exceptions where lifters cover the bar too long (e.g. Minasyan, Simon Martirosyan) but overall the lifters just push vertically until the bar has sufficient height/momentum to be received most easily (whether in power or squat), which is how the pull should be performed. First pull/transition/2nd pull/turnover are post-hoc descriptions similar to the phases of gait, not markers to aim towards. There is no such thing as "full extension" or "partial extension". The liftcatch is one motion.
2. Drugs
3. Being strong in both the knee-dominant and hip/back dominant lower body movements. Not neglecting any of the major systems involved in force production (e.g. quads or hamstrings) as some other systems do.
4. Less end range thoracic extension strength necessary in the snatch compared to the clean and jerk. Most Armenians are stronger through the shoulder elevation and upward rotation compared to thoracic extension and posterior scapular tilt.
5. Lots of sport training and often at moderate-high intensities. This can be classic lift variations of many kinds, often focusing on the speed of fixation and braking in the squat. Clean grip snatches, muscle (no 2nd pull) squat snatches, block/hang stuff and so on.
   
   This results in the lifters being very strong in the parallel elastic component of force production (fascia, mysial tissues etc) through the quads and hips. This is also why they're capable of being "fast" in snatches and cleans.
   Diving under without having appropriate capacity to minimise the impulsive force of the impact is a good way to miss quickly.
   
   I don't have the proof for this but anecdotally that the elastic strength of the catch of the snatch/clean doesn't transfer particularly well to the dip and drive of the jerk as the muscle lengths are much shorter and there is a greater involvement of series elastic components. The same applies for the reception of the jerk - the isometric stiffness at short muscle lengths is what helps to minimise the load on the legs/trunk.
   
   It's not the same as the ability to yield quickly (for the want of a better term), as yielding downwards and lunging the jerk is a good way to make everything way harder (see, Lee Sangyeon missing jerks).

strapping wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 12:30 am but overall the lifters just push vertically until the bar has sufficient height/momentum to be received most easily (whether in power or squat), which is how the pull should be performed. First pull/transition/2nd pull/turnover are post-hoc descriptions similar to the phases of gait, not markers to aim towards. There is no such thing as "full extension" or "partial extension". The liftcatch is one motion.


I don't have the proof for this but anecdotally that the elastic strength of the catch of the snatch/clean doesn't transfer particularly well to the dip and drive of the jerk as the muscle lengths are much shorter and there is a greater involvement of series elastic components. The same applies for the reception of the jerk - the isometric stiffness at short muscle lengths is what helps to minimise the load on the legs/trunk.

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The bias I was thinking about you somewhat allude to here, but with a few differences to what I'm thinking.

With a few exceptions, its not just the jerk that is a problem for Armenian lifters - I think its the clean. My observation is that Armenian lifters lack a fluid conservation of energy in the turnover of the clean, making for a very difficult jerk regardless of the technique coached into them.

The snatch I view as requiring the abrupt fixation and an arresting of downward momentum. It is this that I see Armenian lifters do very well and quite consistently across their men's team - what I believe you cite as 'The liftcatch is one motion' But I think they're doing it in the clean as well and it hurts them there.

The jerk I feel has more variables going on in terms of dip/drive phase and reception phase which lends to some of those characteristics of a good snatcher or a good cleaner carrying over to it.

Subjectively, arbitrarily I do feel that most Armenians have a "good enough" clean for the jerks that they miss. I don't feel that their cleans are the primary limiting factor to making their jerks harder. There are other lifters/countries with similar cleans who are better in the jerk.

I think that the Armenian lifters do a good job in the legs of returning the elastic energy, but I think the connectedness of the turnover is the issue.
A number of Armenians have a noticeably slow upper body fixation of the bar (which I am roughly defining as time between end of extension to racking of the bar), relying on their general strength to make up for the bar crashing on them.

That bar crash then puts them out of position or softens their upper back, fatiguing them and/or putting them out of position for the jerk.

I think there is a similar/peripherally related thing amongst the US particularly where there is the pervasive idea that going down as fast as possible in the squat enables a faster rebound up because of 0.5mv^2 tings but really it's more complicated and going too fast (i.e. not eccentrically resisting sufficiently) reduces energy storage and elastic recoil. It's crashing without crashing.

That's an interesting thought about the influence of the squat speed, certainly the slow upper body and bar crash/rhythm is an issue I have seen from that team.

Already this forum is proving its worth in stimulating conversations.

Hawkpeter wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 11:38 pm Maybe the question should be phrased as, 'why are Armenians such good snatchers?'

Are they?

2022 WWC = 48% make

KARAPETYAN Andranik 1/3
MANUKYAN Vardan 2/3
HOVHANNISYAN Davit 1/3
MKRTCHYAN Hakob 1/3
GASPARYAN Samvel 1/3
LALAYAN Varazdat 3/3
MARTIROSYAN Simon 1/3

2021 WWC = 52% make

HARUTYUNYAN Rafik 2/3
KARAPETYAN Andranik 3/3
HOVHANNISYAN Davit 1/3
MKRTCHYAN Hakob 1/3
GASPARYAN Samvel 1/3
MARTIROSYAN Arsen 1/3
MARTIROSYAN Simon 1/3
LALAYAN Varazdat 3/3
MINASYAN Gor 1/3

---

By conjecture, individual Armenians can reach high results in the snatch, but the country as a whole can not. Further, the individual success is not consistent (Karapetyan, Martirosyan). The second point is unlike e.g. Georgia/Talakhadze.

I'm thinking more so in regards to weight on the bar, not lift success, the placing is relevant too.

At least they don't bomb out on the snatch like they do on the jerk - so thats something.

Where will Sara Ahmed EGY move for 2024? It seems 81 at this point, but my hunch is China will abandon 71 after their failure to secure the class and the advantage at 81 is still at least 5kg. Prediction: Ahmed will move down to 71 in early 2024, easier chance for a Olympic medal.

Paredes COL needs a 221 c&j for the total WR at M102 (with a 192 WR snatch). Can he do this? Hmm.