Weightlifting Forums

Yesterday I was at a youth camp (an event where the best young athletes in the region meet under the supervision of national coaches) and a detail came out that had not been mentioned in the first level course. I don't know how significant this can be but it can be another piece of the puzzle of the new Italian school.

The advice was to push on the forefoot during the "stacco" (the first part of the lift, from the take-off to the knee), to better recruit the posterior kinetic chain. After the kneecap, when the "cambio" (the "transition phase", where the knee angle decreases) begins, the pressure point on the foot must move slightly back, towards the center of the foot, and then return to the forefoot with the "spinta" (the extension).

I'm not sure about the transition after the knee, how much the backward movement of the pressure point can be controlled? I have to experiment with my athletes.

Yesterday the Italian team was training on the next platforms over from me, big thing that jumped out at me was how involved in every rep Corbu was. Some of the girls looked like they might be only a day or two from competing and he was going over every detail. I could see someone conclude that it was 'over-coaching' but I have no idea the background.

Certainly getting under the bar in the snatch is a big point of emphasis.

Elle wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 7:16 am Yesterday I was at a youth camp (an event where the best young athletes in the region meet under the supervision of national coaches) and a detail came out that had not been mentioned in the first level course. I don't know how significant this can be but it can be another piece of the puzzle of the new Italian school.

The advice was to push on the forefoot during the "stacco" (the first part of the lift, from the take-off to the knee), to better recruit the posterior kinetic chain. After the kneecap, when the "cambio" (the "transition phase", where the knee angle decreases) begins, the pressure point on the foot must move slightly back, towards the center of the foot, and then return to the forefoot with the "spinta" (the extension).

I'm not sure about the transition after the knee, how much the backward movement of the pressure point can be controlled? I have to experiment with my athletes.

The rearward migration of the centre of pressure (CoP) in the first pull, then forward migration in the second pull is previously observed in other countries (e.g. Chinese Taipei, USA) but not actually useful unless you have force plates lying around to objectively measure CoP and ground reaction forces. We are not researchers here, or at least I'm not.

This rearward movement of the CoP is a consequence of the rearward movement of the barbell as the lifter comes up off the floor and through the transition, then forward movement of CoP as the lifter gets up onto the ball of the foot in the 2nd pull.

I don't think this is something you can consciously manage in the short time frame of the pull on a snatch. The pull (let's say, propulsion) phase on a snatch lasts just over a second, lifters already think too much and freak out over snatches already.

Where an athlete feels the CoP is also usually different to where it is. Remember that the angle of the foot applying force to the shoe is not the same as the shoe to the ground. There is no guarantee that what your foot feels is what a force plate sees. You can try this by using shoes with different heel heights, you have to adjust your perceived (and real) center of pressure to recreate similar mechanics with different shoes.

I usually like to teach constant vertical pressure through a single point, even though that's not what actually happens. IMO trying to cue or teach a rearward migration of the CoP would probably result in greater loss of vertical force and an increase in horizontal force before the 2nd pull because it could induce too much rearward motion.

It should also be mentioned that to be quite honest, there is variation in where extremely successful (WR) athletes actually place and move their CoP because different athletes have different musculoskeletal strengths and different leverages (including foot length). For an elite individual, their CoP placement and movement will be consistent across lifts, just not between individuals.

There have been world record holders pushing from the forefoot, midfoot and heel at various points in the pull.There is of course, movement of the CoP in the pull for all lifters, but I don't think it should be taught intentionally. Luo Shifang is successful and consistent with a CoP that does move rearward/foreward but basically remains in the forefoot for the whole lift. On the other hand, Zakharevich visibly rocks off his forefoot towards midfoot/heel on some of his snatches.

As an aside, I don't really believe in any style or school of weightlifting. T There's no real systematic Chinese teaching as it were (despite common claims), there's no singular Soviet style of weightlifting, there's no real singular Cuban style of weightlifting and so on. Style should be a consequence of biomechanics, individual physiology and individual psychological constraints.

Elle wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 7:16 am Yesterday I was at a youth camp (an event where the best young athletes in the region meet under the supervision of national coaches) and a detail came out that had not been mentioned in the first level course. I don't know how significant this can be but it can be another piece of the puzzle of the new Italian school.

The advice was to push on the forefoot during the "stacco" (the first part of the lift, from the take-off to the knee), to better recruit the posterior kinetic chain. After the kneecap, when the "cambio" (the "transition phase", where the knee angle decreases) begins, the pressure point on the foot must move slightly back, towards the center of the foot, and then return to the forefoot with the "spinta" (the extension).

I'm not sure about the transition after the knee, how much the backward movement of the pressure point can be controlled? I have to experiment with my athletes.

Probably its my lack of reading comprehension or general lack of knowledge but being on the forefoot on the first phase of the pull,wouldn´t recruit more the quadriceps?? Changing the centre of pressure to the heel would recruit more the posterior chain muscles (hamstrings,glutes,etc),as what is commonly seen on the transition?? ??

These semantics sound about as useful as telling a lifter to "sweep the barbell in" towards themselves during the pull phase. Majoring in the minors which is only going to produce misinformation in the game of telephone passing down from Corbu to future coaches.

strapping wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 1:01 pm The rearward migration of the centre of pressure (CoP) in the first pull, then forward migration in the second pull is previously observed in other countries (e.g. Chinese Taipei, USA) but not actually useful unless you have force plates lying around to objectively measure CoP and ground reaction forces. We are not researchers here, or at least I'm not.

This rearward movement of the CoP is a consequence of the rearward movement of the barbell as the lifter comes up off the floor and through the transition, then forward movement of CoP as the lifter gets up onto the ball of the foot in the 2nd pull.

Yes, the movement of the CoP is classically reported by Garhammer already 40 years ago, and I can understand why this happens. And I totally agree, I think that a CoP movement is somehow "physiological".

strapping wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 1:01 pm I don't think this is something you can consciously manage in the short time frame of the pull on a snatch. The pull (let's say, propulsion) phase on a snatch lasts just over a second, lifters already think too much and freak out over snatches already.

Nono, it's not something that you can consciously control during the lift, but maybe you can learn to manage it with training and make it an unconscious routine, at least partially.

strapping wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 1:01 pm Where an athlete feels the CoP is also usually different to where it is. Remember that the angle of the foot applying force to the shoe is not the same as the shoe to the ground. There is no guarantee that what your foot feels is what a force plate sees. You can try this by using shoes with different heel heights, you have to adjust your perceived (and real) center of pressure to recreate similar mechanics with different shoes.

This is a very good point, you should have constant access to a force plate to accurately assess the CoP displacement because looking at the shoes can be misleading.

strapping wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 1:01 pm I usually like to teach constant vertical pressure through a single point, even though that's not what actually happens. IMO trying to cue or teach a rearward migration of the CoP would probably result in greater loss of vertical force and an increase in horizontal force before the 2nd pull because it could induce too much rearward motion.

That's the point: why move the CoP back during the "cambio" (the transition phase)? That coach said that it makes you push better because the foot is entirely on the ground. So, why start pushing off with the forefoot if there are any benefits to pushing off with the whole foot? And, as you say, doesn't the retraction of the cop risk increasing the development of horizontal forces?

strapping wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 1:01 pm It should also be mentioned that to be quite honest, there is variation in where extremely successful (WR) athletes actually place and move their CoP because different athletes have different musculoskeletal strengths and different leverages (including foot length). For an elite individual, their CoP placement and movement will be consistent across lifts, just not between individuals.

There have been world record holders pushing from the forefoot, midfoot and heel at various points in the pull.There is of course, movement of the CoP in the pull for all lifters, but I don't think it should be taught intentionally. Luo Shifang is successful and consistent with a CoP that does move rearward/foreward but basically remains in the forefoot for the whole lift. On the other hand, Zakharevich visibly rocks off his forefoot towards midfoot/heel on some of his snatches.

I totally agree with you, and in fact I don't think it's a detail that has such a big influence. But I like to understand the reason for certain technical choices. Do they come from a belief or have they somehow done experiments, do they have incontrovertible data that can actually make a difference? Why does the Italian school claim to be so innovative compared to others? What is done in Italy that others don't do? Why does the Italian school claim to be so innovative compared to others? What is done in Italy that others don't do? I like thinking about this, it leads me to delve deeper into theoretical issues (even if they have little impact on practice). Maybe I'm missing something?

strapping wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 1:01 pm As an aside, I don't really believe in any style or school of weightlifting. T There's no real systematic Chinese teaching as it were (despite common claims), there's no singular Soviet style of weightlifting, there's no real singular Cuban style of weightlifting and so on. Style should be a consequence of biomechanics, individual physiology and individual psychological constraints.

I totally agree with this too: it is the technique that must adapt to the athlete and not vice versa while still respecting the basic principles.

Guima73 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 1:11 pm Probably its my lack of reading comprehension or general lack of knowledge but being on the forefoot on the first phase of the pull,wouldn´t recruit more the quadriceps?? Changing the centre of pressure to the heel would recruit more the posterior chain muscles (hamstrings,glutes,etc),as what is commonly seen on the transition?? ??

I agree, I'm not entirely clear on why pushing off the forefoot results in greater activation of the posterior kinetic chain. I'd like to see data on this as well.

And anyway, how limiting is the strength in the first pull? To the point of having to change position to recruit other muscles?

brian.degennaro wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 4:57 pm These semantics sound about as useful as telling a lifter to "sweep the barbell in" towards themselves during the pull phase. Majoring in the minors which is only going to produce misinformation in the game of telephone passing down from Corbu to future coaches.

As Hawkpeter said, Corbu (and all the other national team coaches) are very attentive to details. How much do these details matter? I don't know, they say they make the difference! The problem is that there is no clarity on these details, A says one thing and B says something slightly different.

Guima73 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 1:11 pm Probably its my lack of reading comprehension or general lack of knowledge but being on the forefoot on the first phase of the pull,wouldn´t recruit more the quadriceps?? Changing the centre of pressure to the heel would recruit more the posterior chain muscles (hamstrings,glutes,etc),as what is commonly seen on the transition?? ??

Elle wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 6:12 pm I agree, I'm not entirely clear on why pushing off the forefoot results in greater activation of the posterior kinetic chain. I'd like to see data on this as well.

And anyway, how limiting is the strength in the first pull? To the point of having to change position to recruit other muscles?

It depends on why the pressure is in the forefoot. You are probably assuming that the bar is remaining in contact with the body through the lift (which is a fair assumption).

When a lifter takes up a low hip starting position, the bar must start further forward and the CoP/CoM must be further forward not to scrape the shins. The inverse is true where a higher hip start position allows for the bar to be more rearward and subsequently a more rearward CoP/CoM, usually with less rearward movement of CoP through the pull.

However, if you try to hold static hip/knee angles at a position (e.g. at mid-shin) and simply rock forward/back with similar angles, you'll find that more forward CoM increases back/hip/ankle moments and decreases quad remands and vice versa.

Heel elevated trap bar squat is a good exercise for very weak beginners to use the quads. Seems to be better than a front squat for constraining a beginner into a relatively vertical torso, knee dominant position.

A bit doubtful it would be particularly useful for intermediate or advanced athletes lifting well in excess of BW but I could be wrong.