Chit-chat thread

[brian.degennaro]

Does South Korea get enough credit? I know they didn't medal in Tokyo but they have had some outstanding lifters internationally.

Sa Jae-Hyouk and Jang Mi-Ran were such great lifters at a time when we know doping standards were far more loose than now. Lee Ba-Young jerked 190 and snatched 152.5 at 69kg, Yoon Ji-hee totaled 213 @ 53, these are outstanding numbers. Kim Min-Jae was born 10 years too early, 185 Snatch at 94!

I think in this circle here South Korea gets credit. It's been highlighted before how impressive select team members perform in the past relative to other Asian powerhouses like China, TPE, DPRK, and Thailand without any international doping positives in their entire history (same with Japan). I doubt they are using (read: have) the same political influence as China, Russia, and other countries to circumvent WADA/IWF. The general training system is also pretty straightforward from whatever documents and texts I am able to find.

[erpel]

I'm going to be an ass and point out that important results from the Korean video happened in October 2022 and were not replicated at the WWC (M73, W76, W87+ medals).

[brian.degennaro]

I'm going to be an ass and point out that important results from the Korean video happened in October 2022 and were not replicated at the WWC (M73, W76, W87+ medals).

Not an ass at all. The other side of the coin is that South Korean lifters perform really well when they do and when they don't ... they really don't. Quick look at the results, I think at World's most opened around or above their third attempts from the Sports Festival.

[strapping]

Does South Korea get enough credit? I know they didn't medal in Tokyo but they have had some outstanding lifters internationally.

Sa Jae-Hyouk and Jang Mi-Ran were such great lifters at a time when we know doping standards were far more loose than now. Lee Ba-Young jerked 190 and snatched 152.5 at 69kg, Yoon Ji-hee totaled 213 @ 53, these are outstanding numbers. Kim Min-Jae was born 10 years too early, 185 Snatch at 94!

On social media? No.
Amongst the people who would be on this forum? I think so.

I would suggest that there's a strong possibility that earlier South Korean lifters (e.g. 1990s) were not clean. However, I do think SK cleaned up much earlier than other countries and has managed to stay clean internationally and pop lifters domestically (e.g. Bak Joohyo, mentioned in the video).

I don't speak Korean so any translations would be gr8/8


Edit: still don't speak Korean but I think he tested positive for 7-Keto-DHEA [S1, prohormone for DHEA] and Arimistane [S4, aromatase inhibitor] from the fat burner MHP Anadrox.

I'm going to be an ass and point out that important results from the Korean video happened in October 2022 and were not replicated at the WWC (M73, W76, W87+ medals).

Not an ass at all. The other side of the coin is that South Korean lifters perform really well when they do and when they don't ... they really don't. Quick look at the results, I think at World's most opened around or above their third attempts from the Sports Festival.

I think the selection of openers is a definite factor in SK inconsistency internationally. Bodyweight cuts may be a factor for some particular lifters (see - Lee Sang Yeon changing body shape with replenishment between snatch/cj in bogota).

Technique is not "the" reason for inconsistency but I think it plays a part - many of the South Korean lifters rush to get under the bar (all 3 lifts) and don't stay active on the bar in the finish of all 3 lifts. The ultra strict reffing that has really ramped up since 2020 Asians is resulting in a lot more pressout calls for SK.

[erpel]

That's a very fair point, the recently recurring nonsense jury interventions prevented some good Korean results.

[brian.degennaro]

In that vein, what are people's thoughts on the jury and reffing in the last several competitions?

I personally see reffing as being unnecessarily harsh, with lifts that would have been passed in the '90s and '00s being given red lights or overturned by an overactive jury for elbow flickers and shoulder movement. It has honestly made watching the sport the last couple of years a chore and not enjoyable. If the jury has to intervene so much, then they should be sitting in the referee chairs instead.

At this point, I'm leaning towards abolishing the press out rule entirely or striking out 2.5.1.3 (Pause during the extension of the arms) and 2.5.1.5 (Bending and extending the elbows during the recovery) to limit the enforcement to just pressing out after the lifter has reached the lowest position of the lift to keep it as simple as possible.

[Hawkpeter]

Tokyo was utterly terrible in terms of officiating IMO. Extremely harsh and it took away from the spectacle of the sport.

I thought 2021 Senior Worlds was okay, most of 2021 Junior Worlds and 2022 Europeans (apart from a few clangers) seemed fine too. 2022 Commonwealth Games was good, what I saw of 2022 Pan Americans seemed okay as well.

2022 Worlds was a step back IMO. Way too pedantic and the number of jury interventions took away from the event. There is a lack of an overall guiding principle to give the lifter the benefit of the doubt - this is extremely important in weightlifting because there is an obvious difference between a very commanding rep that includes a slight flicker of elbow unlock, and a rep that is not even close to being fixated overhead and just falls to the platform. Actually ascending the bar and stabilizing overhead needs to be given greater weighting in competition. With the way that the 3 rules (finishing with press out, uneven lock out, and unlocked re-bending) are written and interpreted, it makes that very difficult. I do wonder how the rules get translated into other languages as well because the overall rules knowledge seems questionable for some teams.

Clearly rules 2.5.1.4 and 2.5.1.5 are conflated with each other, in fact the whole act of fixating the bar is made an amorphous blob of ruling that all gets referred to as 'a press out'. It does nothing except give technical officials a job to do, and any cynic would look at those B sessions in Tokyo where there were more TO's than athletes and conclude why things are the way they are.

[brian.degennaro]

My personal opinion is that we should tighten up the rules (only call obvious infractions) and eliminate some of the referees/jury. One ref plus a 3 person jury to review. Take some of the unneeded staff away. At the domestic level, it would reduce the strain on TOs at large national meets if fewer officials are needed to operate the competition.

[strapping]

In that vein, what are people's thoughts on the jury and reffing in the last several competitions?

The jury has always been, and will always be a role for bureaucrats. It adds no value to the sport to have two layers of judges, but it does give people the opportunity to fly around and feel important. It's bloat but that is the point.

My issue is not with ultra-strict refereeing per se, but rather the inconsistency that such a standard produces. If I were to referee to the absolute extent of the rules, I would give everything a red light. For all of the strictness we saw at 2022 worlds and Tokyo, I also saw absolutely obvious (to me) infractions get passed on a frequent basis.

I don't really count this rule or enforce it strictly, but I haven't forgotten "the Referees give the signal to lower the barbell as soon as the athlete becomes motionless in all parts of the body".

This is of course, highly improbable when one is attempting to lift weights that are heavy - though people have been red-lighted for dropping the bar after the down signal whilst they were "shaking" in the standing position. Of course, the giver of those red-lights has not lifted a weight in a very long time.

It's very evident that most TOs do not have the technical competency to consistently enforce the rules (and quite often, don't even really know the rules), all of the way up to IWF Category I. The sport can't run without TOs so I don't want to blame them entirely, especially with many local level ones being volunteers. However, reality is I think most of them suck.

So I support yeeting many of the TCRR regs (including all elbow lock rules) that do not spark joy, because it's unfair to lifters to have people who barely know the rules decide their fate based on vibes, luck and often waning eyesight.

[blairbob]

Brian just let me know about this forum is back now which is great.

I've posted it to the Reddit (I think I'll sticky it in the weekly). TBH, I doubt many ppl will come over, particularly the younger crowd, which isn't really bad either.


There are a few Koreans on the Discord, maybe some of them can translate.