Hypothetical question.
If Karlos Nasar wins Gold in the 89kg class in Paris, could we say that his career to date was better than Ilya Ilyn's career up to winning Gold in Beijing?
In 2008 Ilya was World Champion twice (05' @85kg and '06' @ 94kg), both as a Junior. Won Junior Worlds in 2006 as well and was named IWF lifter of the year. 2 time senior continental championship.
If Karlos wins Gold, he will have been World Champion in 2021 as an 18 year old, 2 time continental champion and also Olympic champion as a Junior. Should have won in 2022 except for bombing on the snatch.
Setting world records is not quite comparable because of how long the categories had been established and the state of changing Olympic classes. Ilya though snagging that 233 jerk was impressive, Karlos with the 223 at the Grand Prix is driving towards a 225 jerk in Paris. Ilya's 2008 Gold medal* performance came from 185 and 233 in the 94kg class. Under the current coefficient it comes out to 493.58, to match that, Karlos would need to total 407kg - certainly within his ability.
Given the standard of testing now, and that among all of the above Karlos also went through an achilles injury, Karlos is better right?
Chit-chat thread
Re: Chit-chat thread
Eh sure, probably. Ilya is good and overrated. Any good and popular thing tends to get overrated because people ignore the context.
See: Led Zeppelin's music
No one remembers Ilya for his career up to Beijing. The meme weightlifting fans remember him as a 105kg lifter for being chunky and doing 242, 246 under pressure. The numbers oriented fans of weightlifting remember him for his performance in London. Both remember him for the career and spectacle he had leading up to those performances.
IMO by the numbers Karlos is better, but Karlos hasn't quite had the career and impact Ilya had, at least before everything came crashing down. I always wonder if Ilya was simply a high responder to drugs, or if other factors (age, mental and physical health problems) were the thing that caused Ilya's clean comeback to be so disappointing.
See: Led Zeppelin's music
No one remembers Ilya for his career up to Beijing. The meme weightlifting fans remember him as a 105kg lifter for being chunky and doing 242, 246 under pressure. The numbers oriented fans of weightlifting remember him for his performance in London. Both remember him for the career and spectacle he had leading up to those performances.
IMO by the numbers Karlos is better, but Karlos hasn't quite had the career and impact Ilya had, at least before everything came crashing down. I always wonder if Ilya was simply a high responder to drugs, or if other factors (age, mental and physical health problems) were the thing that caused Ilya's clean comeback to be so disappointing.
Re: Chit-chat thread
Them's fightin' words.
You make a good point about the heavy end of Ilya's career. The fact that it overlaps with the beginning of Karlos' is the genesis of comparing the 2, despite the beginning being where the greater similarities occur. I dont think we will get to any MJ vs Lebron or Messi vs Ronaldo situation where WL meme lords arrange themselves into one camp or the other. But I'm ready for it.
Re: Chit-chat thread
I'm more flexible on Ilya being great and/or overrated than on Led Zeppelin. There were other bands around at the time that were at least as influential, Wishbone Ash for one. But at least they're not Aerosmith.
I think debates about the greatest athlete (or whatever else) only really get heated when people have an idolising, parasocial relationship with an idol/athlete. People get attached to the idea they have attached to a name and face that they've never met and they'll ride or die for that idea. When you have discussions with fans of the medium (sport, music genre etc.) then it becomes much less personal. Above all, I am a fan of the game though if I'm being honest with myself I still have favourites amongst lifters.
As with all of these comparative discussions, the conclusions drawn are largely dictated by the weighting of different metrics.
To me, there are questions about Ilya's greatness without the drugs but what is undeniable was that he was a fantastic competitor, showman, clutch lifter at his best. The problem is that his competitors for the 94, 105kg greatest lifters can all be assumed to be on drugs too (and a lot of them): Moradi IRI, Kakhi Kakhiashvili GEO/GRE, Aramnau BLR etc.
Ilya had a much more illustrious career than Moradi, especially in the earlier years of their careers. Both lifters reached similar peaks with Moradi's peaks slightly higher IMO accounting for training results and passing drug testing.
Yes it's training, but Moradi's 205+243 in training at about 98kg BW is almost incomprehensible. That surpasses the 100kg world records of 200.5 and 242.5, and matches Blagoy Blagoev's lifetime best training snatch at similar bodyweight (98-99). Even accounting for drug use; what the fuck.
Aramnau IMO was a better 105 at his peak in Beijing than Ilya at his peak, but their lives both quickly fell apart thereafter and I feel neither of them reached their maximum potential as 105kg lifters. I think that either of them could have done 445, 450 if things had gone differently.
Going back to the comparison of Nasar vs Ilya, I think their peaks are similar leaning towards Nasar being higher, but given that Ilya's legacy wasn't just the peak, I think Nasar needs to spend more time at the top to dethrone Ilya.
I think debates about the greatest athlete (or whatever else) only really get heated when people have an idolising, parasocial relationship with an idol/athlete. People get attached to the idea they have attached to a name and face that they've never met and they'll ride or die for that idea. When you have discussions with fans of the medium (sport, music genre etc.) then it becomes much less personal. Above all, I am a fan of the game though if I'm being honest with myself I still have favourites amongst lifters.
As with all of these comparative discussions, the conclusions drawn are largely dictated by the weighting of different metrics.
To me, there are questions about Ilya's greatness without the drugs but what is undeniable was that he was a fantastic competitor, showman, clutch lifter at his best. The problem is that his competitors for the 94, 105kg greatest lifters can all be assumed to be on drugs too (and a lot of them): Moradi IRI, Kakhi Kakhiashvili GEO/GRE, Aramnau BLR etc.
Ilya had a much more illustrious career than Moradi, especially in the earlier years of their careers. Both lifters reached similar peaks with Moradi's peaks slightly higher IMO accounting for training results and passing drug testing.
Yes it's training, but Moradi's 205+243 in training at about 98kg BW is almost incomprehensible. That surpasses the 100kg world records of 200.5 and 242.5, and matches Blagoy Blagoev's lifetime best training snatch at similar bodyweight (98-99). Even accounting for drug use; what the fuck.
Aramnau IMO was a better 105 at his peak in Beijing than Ilya at his peak, but their lives both quickly fell apart thereafter and I feel neither of them reached their maximum potential as 105kg lifters. I think that either of them could have done 445, 450 if things had gone differently.
Going back to the comparison of Nasar vs Ilya, I think their peaks are similar leaning towards Nasar being higher, but given that Ilya's legacy wasn't just the peak, I think Nasar needs to spend more time at the top to dethrone Ilya.
Re: Chit-chat thread
I note the IWF article about 2024 Senior World Championships in Bahrain.
In and of itself, its a typical fluff announcement with staged photos. I don't have any criticism of it - its in-line with what we see from sport federations. My question is in regards to how the IWF is evolving (or not) in terms of governance and operations. The IWF now has a CEO, Achilles Tsogas. What is his job description? If he is the CEO, really he should be the one doing pre-competition inspections. Or is he really a COO? I'm hoping that after Paris we see modernisation on this front.
In and of itself, its a typical fluff announcement with staged photos. I don't have any criticism of it - its in-line with what we see from sport federations. My question is in regards to how the IWF is evolving (or not) in terms of governance and operations. The IWF now has a CEO, Achilles Tsogas. What is his job description? If he is the CEO, really he should be the one doing pre-competition inspections. Or is he really a COO? I'm hoping that after Paris we see modernisation on this front.
Re: Chit-chat thread
https://tv.cctv.com/2024/07/14/VIDEDrVq ... 0714.shtml
Here at 3:40 is a 160 & 165kg squat by Hou Zhihui. Makes you wonder what Ri PRK does without cameras.
Here at 3:40 is a 160 & 165kg squat by Hou Zhihui. Makes you wonder what Ri PRK does without cameras.
Re: Chit-chat thread
Strong squat, a little surprised it's so high given her relative struggle in cleans. Ri Song Gum will be a 49kg Kostova
Re: Chit-chat thread
The IWF should haggle with the IOC for 6+6 medal categories towards 2028 and then just use these for everything. This rumor of a reduction to 8+8 but with non-Olympic ones again is just awful (the IOC is not going to agree with 16 medals, that's certain). Everything is terrible.
Re: Chit-chat thread
Some topics that I've buzzed around in my head the last few days.
1) How many Paris Gold medalists win Gold in LA?
Good chance: Nasar, Reeves, Li Wenwen, Luo, Koanda, Liu
Some chance: Rizki, Hou
No chance: Li Fabin, Lasha.
I just cant see Lasha going for a full quad, Li Fabin will age out, Rizki and Hou can medal but will be in highly competitive situations. Luo Shifang I'm most unsure about.
2) Where ever the weight classes go, what could Nasar and Lopez do to the WR's?
There has to be a 185kg snatch in there at some point. And Nasar could push to 230 if he goes on a 1kg at a time WR streak.
3) Should Coach Yue Jie be in the IWF Hall Of Fame?
He has accumulated some Gold medals now.
4) Li Wenwen - does she ever try to push the WR again?
I suspect not unless another Chinese super comes along. She coudl go 135/170+ for a long time.
5) What ends up happening to the North Korea situation?
Certainly in Bahrain they could convincingly defeat China. Will they align themselves for anti doping compliance for LA 2028?
1) How many Paris Gold medalists win Gold in LA?
Good chance: Nasar, Reeves, Li Wenwen, Luo, Koanda, Liu
Some chance: Rizki, Hou
No chance: Li Fabin, Lasha.
I just cant see Lasha going for a full quad, Li Fabin will age out, Rizki and Hou can medal but will be in highly competitive situations. Luo Shifang I'm most unsure about.
2) Where ever the weight classes go, what could Nasar and Lopez do to the WR's?
There has to be a 185kg snatch in there at some point. And Nasar could push to 230 if he goes on a 1kg at a time WR streak.
3) Should Coach Yue Jie be in the IWF Hall Of Fame?
He has accumulated some Gold medals now.
4) Li Wenwen - does she ever try to push the WR again?
I suspect not unless another Chinese super comes along. She coudl go 135/170+ for a long time.
5) What ends up happening to the North Korea situation?
Certainly in Bahrain they could convincingly defeat China. Will they align themselves for anti doping compliance for LA 2028?
Re: Chit-chat thread
>Should Coach Yue Jie be in the IWF Hall Of Fame?
Chen Wenbin and Wang Guoxin are more accomplished. They have been head coaches since IIRC 1996/2001. I think Chen is retired now, but Wang was still with the women in Paris.
>How many Paris Gold medalists win Gold in LA?
If you'd asked the same right after Tokyo for Paris everyone would've agreed with Shi...
Nasar and Liu have a chance of being in the same category if we get completely new ones.
Li WW only if she can stay at 320.
Reeves not if PRK and Liao are in the same category.
Koanda same, likely not against PRK/CHN.
No to everyone who's 28/30+ already.
>Li Wenwen - does she ever try to push the WR again?
Personally I doubt it. Near 150/190 attempts with that elbow could end up catastrophic and she'd be out for good.
>What ends up happening to the North Korea situation?
They will have positives in the next four years if they keep pushing WRs almost every competition. Though I don't think they will "hide" again.
Chen Wenbin and Wang Guoxin are more accomplished. They have been head coaches since IIRC 1996/2001. I think Chen is retired now, but Wang was still with the women in Paris.
>How many Paris Gold medalists win Gold in LA?
If you'd asked the same right after Tokyo for Paris everyone would've agreed with Shi...
Nasar and Liu have a chance of being in the same category if we get completely new ones.
Li WW only if she can stay at 320.
Reeves not if PRK and Liao are in the same category.
Koanda same, likely not against PRK/CHN.
No to everyone who's 28/30+ already.
>Li Wenwen - does she ever try to push the WR again?
Personally I doubt it. Near 150/190 attempts with that elbow could end up catastrophic and she'd be out for good.
>What ends up happening to the North Korea situation?
They will have positives in the next four years if they keep pushing WRs almost every competition. Though I don't think they will "hide" again.