Chit-chat thread

[Hawkpeter]

But most coaches here aren't most coaches.

Very true, unfortunately it appears that at the highest levels many acclaimed coaches dont bother with attention in these areas - my conjecture would be that international team coaches usually just concern themselves with pre-sorted talent, and the odd occasion that a decent lifter develops some obvious twist in their lifting they dont do anything about it because they dont know how.

I personally would not frame it with the perspective of asymmetries as it were (unless the asymmetry was secondary to pain or injury), but rather a lack of physical capacity relative to task demands. If a body part is less trained, then training it as a weak-point is likely to cause faster improvement.

It bodes the question, how did the unwanted movement happen in the first place? Because that heavily influences the what comes next.

Most people can achieve a lot with very little in frontal/transverse plane training - it's not as if you need to do a lot of it to reap most of the benefits.

Proper split squats (i.e. long, low and loading both legs evenly) and side bends or landmine rotations once a week is often enough training to shore up a lot of weightlifters' weaknesses in the trunk/pelvis/hip.

I find this is particularly useful for the overhead position in the snatch and jerk, not just from the perspective of strengthening but also capacity to shift the athlete-barbell centre of mass and maintain balance.

You're pushing an open door with me. Split leg squats with even weight distribution is something I come back to regularly throughout a training block.

[Hawkpeter]

I think that something else that is underdiscussed is methodology for neck and cervical spine training, injury risk reduction etc.

Cervical spinal loading can be considerable in weightlifting and it's not something that I think most coaches (myself included) prepare athletes for deliberately.

Isometric loading of the cervical extensors is an intervention I use when a lifter comes to me who I observe having taken the cue 'head through' to its most extreme end. This is pretty low-hanging fruit and I havent done a deep enough dive on how useful it could be for lifters of all levels.

[strapping]

Very true, unfortunately it appears that at the highest levels many acclaimed coaches dont bother with attention in these areas - my conjecture would be that international team coaches usually just concern themselves with pre-sorted talent, and the odd occasion that a decent lifter develops some obvious twist in their lifting they dont do anything about it because they dont know how.

State, national and international team coaches (along with other officials) are usually political roles in my opinion.
This doesn't mean the coach is necessarily bad at coaching as some are excellent, it's more like there's little correlation.

In a hierarchical coaching system (e.g. local, city, province, national), coaches usually work with one population of athletes as I'm sure you've noticed.

Sometimes athletes will have personal coaches in a hierarchical coaching system if they have enough clout (e.g. Li Wenwen with Wu Meijin, Leonid Taranenko with his coach who was primarily a civil engineer). However, there's usually a pretty clear national head coach and secondary national coach(es).

As for twisting, I think that often coaches don't know how but also don't know when an intervention will be likely or unlikely to improve performance or reduce risk of injury.

Since Western S&C, physio etc. were employed by China, one of the main goals was to increase symmetry, notably for Shi Zhiyong, Chen Lijun etc. But I don't think Shi has really improved since 2016, simply maintaining his WR breaking level at different BW categories. There was a video showing the "improvement" in knee valgus and symmetry between 69kg Shi and 73kg Shi lifting the same weight, but I think it was just easier for 73kg Shi because he had 4kg extra bodyweight to play with.

I think eliminating excessive twisting requires understanding the source(s) of the twist firstly, then using a combination of special preparatory exercises like overhead squats, snatch balances with appropriate loading and coaching, as well as general preparatory exercises. For a shoulder/upper back source of rotation in the snatch, an example might be doing a dowel overhead squat with a band pulling one side forward, doing rotations against the band with a focus on rotating with the sternum.

Isometric loading of the cervical extensors is an intervention I use when a lifter comes to me who I observe having taken the cue 'head through' to its most extreme end. This is pretty low-hanging fruit and I havent done a deep enough dive on how useful it could be for lifters of all levels.

I don't like cueing head position in general as I feel its role is just as counterbalance to facilitate whichever shoulder strategy is used to support the bar overhead.

The topic came to mind after a lifter of mine had some pain in the rotator cuff which sounded like cervical radiculopathic pain. Thankfully after physio investigation we found it wasn't serious and is resolving quickly with appropriate management of training and lifestyle factors.

Notably Oscar Figueroa's career was adversely affected by a C6-C7 disc herniation causing both radiculopathic pain and loss of strength in the right upper limbs, which caused him to bomb out in Beijing as the bar slipped out of his hands as soon as he tried to pull it off the floor.

I don't think cervical spine training is a massively important aspect of GPP, but I think a little bit sprinkled in here and there might make lifters a bit more robust, especially aiding with end range thoracic extension strength for overhead and in the front rack.

[Hawkpeter]

I note today's article about Karlos Nasar and it reminded me about a rarely spoken about issue in training and doping regimes. The use of stimulants and narcotics in training.

https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles ... 2024-paris

Whilst young Karlos here claims he 'accidentally' took amphetamines and methamphetamines then got behind the wheel, I'm curious how entrenched it is in training for WL. I speculate that it has been a part of coming off AAS for a long time, but with anti-doping tests even more sensitive, and it now being legal for use out of competition, has the use of stimulants in particular increased over the last few years?

[brian.degennaro]

I can't speak to the current era, but I definitely have heard stories from the 70s, 80s, and early 90s where some lifters were hopped up on stims, some even trying psychedelics and hallucinating on the platform.

[Hawkpeter]

Not that I've searched, but I certainly cant recall any papers on the effect of stimulants on performance, whereas studies on the effects of AAS is well documented and referenced.

In power sports, do countries whether access is not illegal have an unfair advantage? I speculate that a training block where stimulants are used on a selection of training days would achieve better competition results. Especially if legal stimulants like caffeine were swapped out to build sensitivity then re-included for competition.

[strapping]

I note today's article about Karlos Nasar and it reminded me about a rarely spoken about issue in training and doping regimes. The use of stimulants and narcotics in training.

In power sports, do countries whether access is not illegal have an unfair advantage? I speculate that a training block where stimulants are used on a selection of training days would achieve better competition results. Especially if legal stimulants like caffeine were swapped out to build sensitivity then re-included for competition.

All comments below are my own thoughts and do not represent any association I am a part of, obviously.

The short answer would be no, but I think there are a number of interesting facets and conversations to be had about this scenario.

I have some personal experience, having been prescribed a variety of drugs (including amphetamines) for my alphabet soup folder at the psychiatrist. I should also note that I've only ever seen amphetamine use at medical doses (e.g. up to 70mg ED) and little knowledge of its use as a narcotic.


I can't speak to the sensitivity of stimulant doping tests and how they've evolved over time as it's not something I've researched. I believe that stimulant usage (as PED) has actually decreased over the last few years, but have no hard evidence to prove it. There are a lot of stimulants that used to be legal, then were made illegal. Awareness about legality of stimulants also seems to have improved.

I do think we'll see more sanctions or punishments for stimulant usage, not because of increased use but because we live in different times now compared to the 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s etc. A decade or two ago, I think Nasar would've just been told off by the cops.


Another aspect is that many weightlifters appear neurodivergent in some way, regardless of whether or not they are professionally diagnosed.
There are serious epistemological issues with current psychiatric diagnoses but I'll put that aside for a second and say that the character traits associated with what we call ADHD (attention deficit hyperactivity disorder), ASD (autism spectrum disorder), and various other forms of neurodivergence are incredibly common amongst weightlifters.

Basically every weightlifter is weird in some way, and more weird than a "normal person's" weirdness, so to speak.
People with diagnosed ADHD are often prescribed stimulants (especially amphetamines), and people with undiagnosed ADHD often unknowingly self-medicate by using stimulants like caffeine, nicotine (often cigarettes), amphetamines or other drugs. Typically dopaminergic ones.



As for effects on training adaptation, I think that is a very complex conversation.

Acute use of amphetamines is slightly different to chronic use and most stimulants have a tolerance-building effect (especially caffeine, a bit with amphetamines/nicotine).

As with pretty much all neurological/psychiatric drugs, stimulant effects can be very individual and opposite.
For example, some people, more commonly people with ADHD, become calm, relaxed and (rarely) sleepy after taking amphetamines.

It enables higher intensities to be hit acutely, which may ultimately improve performance. But it may also cause poorer recovery due to overtraining, increased SNS activation outside of training, anxiety/stress, or poor sleep. If it has positive effects on lifters' mental health/anxiety/stress, it may improve recovery.

If someone is habituated to training with stimulants, then the sessions that they have without it will likely feel worse, for both psychological and physiological reasons. This is why I'm not keen on people snorting a line of pre-workout, drinking a Monster energy, playing hardstyle and screaming every day in the gym. Chill the fuck out.

Firstly, that's not going to happen at the competition. Secondly, that can blunt your awareness and relationship with your body and understanding when to push or pull back based on fatigue etc.

Most people also find an appetite blunting effect with dopamine agonists, whether it's caffeine, amphetamines, nicotine or other drugs. This can help psychologically with dieting for a new weight class. However, the double-edged sword is the aforementioned awareness/body relationship with fatigue. Anecdotally, when things seem to be going a bit too well with training and dieting, the athlete will shortly get hurt. For athletes attempting to gain weight, but not adhering to a strict diet, amphetamines can hinder appetite and result in lack of weight gain, which is obviously bad for performance.

There is a lot that I haven't touched on, but as you can see, it's complex and complicated.
Every neuro drug can have effect A, or effect B, or effect anti-A.

[Hawkpeter]

I'm glad I raised it, all of your points I think or worthy of greater discussion among a wider audience.

Another aspect is that many weightlifters appear neurodivergent in some way, regardless of whether or not they are professionally diagnosed.
There are serious epistemological issues with current psychiatric diagnoses but I'll put that aside for a second and say that the character traits associated with what we call ADHD (attention deficit hyperactivity disorder), ASD (autism spectrum disorder), and various other forms of neurodivergence are incredibly common amongst weightlifters.

Basically every weightlifter is weird in some way, and more weird than a "normal person's" weirdness, so to speak.
People with diagnosed ADHD are often prescribed stimulants (especially amphetamines), and people with undiagnosed ADHD often unknowingly self-medicate by using stimulants like caffeine, nicotine (often cigarettes), amphetamines or other drugs. Typically dopaminergic ones.

I have made similar observations and I would take it further to suggest that other individual sports that are easily quantifiable like powerlifting and track and field also have populations more likely to be neurodivergent than the general population. The manifestation of obsessive compulsive training and eating so easily finds a home in these sports IMO.

As for effects on training adaptation, I think that is a very complex conversation.

Acute use of amphetamines is slightly different to chronic use and most stimulants have a tolerance-building effect (especially caffeine, a bit with amphetamines/nicotine).

As with pretty much all neurological/psychiatric drugs, stimulant effects can be very individual and opposite.
For example, some people, more commonly people with ADHD, become calm, relaxed and (rarely) sleepy after taking amphetamines.

It enables higher intensities to be hit acutely, which may ultimately improve performance. But it may also cause poorer recovery due to overtraining, increased SNS activation outside of training, anxiety/stress, or poor sleep. If it has positive effects on lifters' mental health/anxiety/stress, it may improve recovery.

If someone is habituated to training with stimulants, then the sessions that they have without it will likely feel worse, for both psychological and physiological reasons. This is why I'm not keen on people snorting a line of pre-workout, drinking a Monster energy, playing hardstyle and screaming every day in the gym. Chill the fuck out.

Firstly, that's not going to happen at the competition. Secondly, that can blunt your awareness and relationship with your body and understanding when to push or pull back based on fatigue etc.

No doubt anyone including stimulant use as a protocol could broscience their way into it, or in actual organised national teams be getting some sort of medical direction in house that is periodising the usage and tapering into competition. Its very much what happens in PED world, there are privateers using stuff, and then there are the actual organised teams. Its just one more part of the sport that is a blind spot to participants and fans alike.

[erpel]

WWC was in December and the IWF records still aren't up-to-date.

[Guima73]

And they should have been, I helped on updating the information but it seems the person responsible has been too busy.