Pharmacology/Recovery Methods Thread.

[celicaxx]

So I'm a really mediocre lifter who just lifted to improve in another sport. I'm sure my posts have been seen on the old WLForums, and on Reddit. Assume I'm 140kg, eat McDonalds everyday, and deadlift 60kg. (In actuality I'm 95ish kg and lift 60/90 with a 150 BSQ.)

Anyway, I wanted to make a pharmacology thread here, and I guess we are not bound by Reddit's rules on no banned substance discussion, so that could be helpful. What I wanted to discuss was pharmacology and recovery methods, but mainly things that are currently WADA approved. So for example, this could mean injectable L-Carnitine and B-Vitamins, or more esoteric things like Actovegin, Then for recovery, I'd like to discuss things like electrostimulation, acupuncture, etc. There's quite a lot of medicines or supplements I'd like to discuss, but have nowhere to discuss them and bounce ideas off. This forum is slow moving and small, so compared to Reddit it's probably a better place in some ways, to not "blow up the spot" on certain supplements or methods, and again there's no rule against not discussing something, and the topic will always be bumped as long as someone posts due to the nature of forums vs Reddit.

So I'd love input from other people, especially Brian DG, but I think what I'd like to do is just post occasionally whenever I have time about various medicines or supplements and get some feedback going back and forth about the ideas.

Another thing I found personally helpful about understanding pharmacology from the Russian perspective anyway was Morris Silber's PhD paper on Sport Pharmacology. At one point this was reposted to many forums, and maybe I will re-copy and paste it here, but I find it's a very useful paper.

http://www.sportsci.org/encyc/drafts/Pharmacology.doc

I think to understand the ideas of pharmacology in sport, this passage from Morris's paper is very important and makes a lot of sense.

Sports pharmacology has developed its own methodology and philosophy. To some extent, people balance between health and illness throughout life.. In practical terms, very few people enjoy perfect health; most people live in an intermediate state between good and bad health. The capacity to resist illnesses is dependent upon a person's healthy reserve.

Medical science has emphasized curing disease as the primary method of achieving good health. However, modern research suggests that this has been a flawed approach. In spite of the incredible success of medical science in treating disease and the vast expenditure on medical care in Western Nations, the incidence of illness and medical costs are rising. During the past 20 years in the USA, the sharp increase in the proportion of the national income spent on health care has failed to produce a proportional fall in the death rate and in increase in the average life span (Sokolowska, 1978; Kaznacheyev, 1973). Neither social nor medical measures has had the anticipated effect of preserving the health of the general population.

Historically sport pharmacology was not acknowledged in the United States. Instead, the concept of ergogenic aids and sports supplements have been prompted. Ergogenic aids include any substances or methods believed to aid or improve athletic performance. Interest in ergogenic aids centers on the effects of drugs on athletic performance, particularly on the effects of anabolic steroids on increasing muscle size and strength. Most of the ergogenic aids have been borrowed from medicine and biological sciences, but few of them have been proven by experimental research to be effective and safe as sports performance enhancers. Also, there is no comprehensive methodology for their use. There is also little information about their toxicity (acute or chronic) or their effects on physical stimulation or recuperation. Moreover, the concept of ergogenic aids has become commercialized and served as an instrument for business rather than scientific support for athletes. Even multi-million dollar sports supplementation companies in the United States do not back up their products with satisfactory experimental studies.

So this is the big difference between the Western ideas vs the Eastern ideas of pharmacology. The Western idea is interested only in increasing performance, whereas the Eastern idea sees heavy training as something unhealthy that needs medical aid to do without breaking the body down. I believe personally more in the Eastern idea. Whereas in the West it's more about NoXplode and Celltech supplement ads, or take a gram of test and tren and dbol to get huge.

So I'd like some cool discussions in this thread, about pharmacology. I hope this thread is helpful.

[strapping]

I've updated the rules to reflect the risk that comes with this.

Discussion about the topic of pharmacology more broadly in weightlifting is fine, as well as things like sanctions.
Discussing specific illicit drug protocols, providing links/resources for acquisition and methods for evasion of drug testing are all strictly forbidden.

I'm happy for it to be a little more open than on reddit, particularly with legal interventions, but I thought I'd lay down an early boundary before anyone might get stupid with it. Donacdum

[strapping]

Ergogenic aids in weightlifting have been discussed briefly elsewhere on the forum. Broadly speaking I think there's not a whole lot that you can do to help improve health, only a lot of things you can do to fuck it up.

I'm of the belief that close to none of the common "recovery" methodologies have any effect other than placebo and culling excess inflammation (often from overtraining). Anti-inflammatories aren't inherently positive or negative, it's likely a hormetic response where too much or too little reduces training adaptation.

I'm yet to see sufficient evidence for things like injectable L-carnitine or B-vitamins; especially not enough to counteract things like risk of infection after injection.

An important thing to note is that a great many supplements that are taken by bodybuilders/lifters are either purely placebo, or are often ameliorating issues brought on by the usage of AAS. These are unlikely to be relevant to the drug-free athlete.

There are nutritional/supplementary considerations beyond macronutrients/energy intake. For example, ensuring high protein and calcium intake in times of aggressive fat loss. But I don't count that as pharmacology.


The use of psychotropic/neuromodulatory interventions is probably the closest thing to WADA legal PEDs, but probably doesn't help a whole lot with training. The unfortunate part of this is that it's highly individual (similar to psychotropic drugs).

Caffeine is the common one and it often makes other things work better (e.g. Caffeine + L-tyrosine + sugar for increased dopaminergic transmission). One that strikes me as useful as a weightlifting thing is caffeine with L-theanine, as the L-theanine can reduce the psychological effects of caffeine (anxiety/jitters etc.) whilst still being physically amped up.

Caffeine and nicotine is a viable combination for competition for those who need to be amped up but won't get anxious off the combination. Not to be used chronically in training, for obvious reasons.

High quality ashwagandha (KSM-66 I believe) has had some evidence in reducing cortisol, potentially relevant for those who are chronically stressed. It does seem to be something that either works for someone or has no effect.

None of the above is to be taken as advice, nor are my comments elsewhere on the board.

[brian.degennaro]

So this is the big difference between the Western ideas vs the Eastern ideas of pharmacology. The Western idea is interested only in increasing performance, whereas the Eastern idea sees heavy training as something unhealthy that needs medical aid to do without breaking the body down. I believe personally more in the Eastern idea. Whereas in the West it's more about NoXplode and Celltech supplement ads, or take a gram of test and tren and dbol to get huge.

So this was something my coach had spoken about to me before regarding non-hormonal supplementation. He did not understand how certain meds like meldonium and others were banned by WADA. The purpose of their incorporation in training was not to enhance performance, but to counteract some of the negatives associated with high level training which, no matter who you are, is unhealthy. In many cases these meds are utilized to counter the effects of anabolic use such as atherosclerosis and BP. That is about the extent of my knowledge on this subject.

[celicaxx]

So this is the big difference between the Western ideas vs the Eastern ideas of pharmacology. The Western idea is interested only in increasing performance, whereas the Eastern idea sees heavy training as something unhealthy that needs medical aid to do without breaking the body down. I believe personally more in the Eastern idea. Whereas in the West it's more about NoXplode and Celltech supplement ads, or take a gram of test and tren and dbol to get huge.

So this was something my coach had spoken about to me before regarding non-hormonal supplementation. He did not understand how certain meds like meldonium and others were banned by WADA. The purpose of their incorporation in training was not to enhance performance, but to counteract some of the negatives associated with high level training which, no matter who you are, is unhealthy. In many cases these meds are utilized to counter the effects of anabolic use such as atherosclerosis and BP. That is about the extent of my knowledge on this subject.

So this is what I really want to speak about. I feel like I agree with your coach.

So a few drugs that interest me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drotaverine

Nospa, apparently it's a common pain reliever in the Eastern bloc. I got interested in this drug because it was in a picture of Doctor Georgi's medical kit bag for Lasha, along with another injectable NSAID I forget the name of. Nospa seems interesting both in that it's a muscle relaxer but doesn't seem to have sedative properties, like say, Flexaril would, and is also apparently used for nootropic properties. According to wiki it lowers blood pressure and increases cardiac output. So this seems to be a commonly used drug in Eastern bloc sports.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heel_(corporation)

Oleg Chen in an interview said for his aches and pains he thought Traumeel was very effective. It's a homeopathic product. It's available in cream, pills, and injections. I might buy some to try on my elbow.

However, on the opposite end of this spectrum in causing pain, Bud Charniga wrote that in the 1980s the Soviets were using medicines "of the prostaglandin class" but unfortunately I can't find the article anymore. So this would be rather extreme, but interesting, and still vaguely WADA approved. Bodybuilders for sight enhancement of muscles will actually inject prostaglandins, aka, the things that make you feel pain/inflammation directly into say, their biceps or delts, to grow the muscle. Problem is, you feel pain, but also the prostaglandins cause a bowel movement and it's just extremely unpleasant and awful, and the synthetic drug used is used for inducing labor in livestock. So I don't know if this is Bud making up stuff, or actually occurred or what in 1980s Soviet weightlifters as an experiment, or is still occurring today. (As it doesn't seem to be banned.) But I find it an interesting anecdote. Actually, I found what Bud wrote.

https://www.sportivnypress.com/2016/rus ... ng-part-2/

According to Medvedyev, the principle distinction between the two periods of explosive growth of world records was the influence of the special enhancement applied. In the first period from 1967 – 1973 ‘weaker’ anabolics were used. In the second period beginning in 1980 more powerful “hormonal” preparations including prostaglandids became wide spread (Medvedyev, 1994).

I think the prostaglandid theory of muscle growth is very interesting, in that perhaps prostagladids might have the highest effect on muscle growth, and "more pain more gain" is actually true. I've heard it explained this is why astronauts in space lose so much muscle and strength, because being weightless there's no prostaglandid release or inflammation at all in the body.

What else... there's really probably over a hundred medicines and supplements I'd like to talk about. So I'm hoping I can kind of use this as a blog of sorts.

For pain, what's interesting is Tramadol is only getting banned next year, in competition only. So to me it's kinda laughable stuff like meldonium is banned but you can be on amphetamines and Tramadol until a week or so out from competition, and until this year could compete on Tramadol.

https://www.wada-ama.org/en/news/wada-p ... bited-list

[strapping]

I remain unconvinced of the efficacy of most of these modalities. The drugs that are legitimately performance enhancing (largely) are simply variations of the same old shit that people have been using for the last 50 years.

When reading or talking to people about these things, it's important to filter through context and know what people are saying or not saying. Talking about illicit things is a quick way to get someone to speak less than honestly. In the 1980s blah blah including prostaglandins. Yeah, also including all three families of anabolic androgenic steroids.

Nowadays, WADA is fairly quick to ban things that may potentially be performance/recovery enhancing and/or harmful. There are drugs with no evidence of performance enhancement or danger that are prematurely banned so they don't have to fuck around and find out. The fact that prostaglandins are not banned, despite having been around for decades and not being a cultural mainstay (i.e. caffeine or nicotine), signifies that they probably don't really do all that much, except for obscure use cases (potentially because of AAS usage).

A lot of people, Eastern Europe and otherwise, simply did a lot of dumb shit and misattributed their successes. Throwing the kitchen sink of "supplements" at someone and attributing it to their success when they are taking gram sized weekly doses of anabolics is ludicrous, but it's exactly what happens.

A walking pharmacy will say, with full sincerity and conviction, that their high dose zinc and magnnesium supplement combined with their bowl of cottage cheese at night is what helps them recover. The comedy of course, lies in the fact that such a high dosage would result in inefficient/ineffective absorption of those minerals, along with the broader context.

WRT meldonium, other sports exist outside of weightlifting. Meldonium is something of a performance enhancer in sports with a mixture of aerobic/anaerobic energy demands. Weightlifting is not energetically intensive. I've heard speculation about its use for dealing with cardiovascular side effects of AAS, but don't know enough to comment. This is a theme. High dosage anabolics (or any drugs) bring complications with them, that is a significant reason why you see these polypharmaceutical preparations.

Another thing to note is that mechanistic reasoning is horseshit as far as practical application goes. Physiology is complex and focusing on a single variable almost always results in a loss of context. Prostaglandins do have a role to play in terms of mechanisms of muscle growth, but it's not a simple dose-response relationship. Where COX inhibitors (e.g. ibuprofen) can augment muscle growth through the PG-F2alpha pathway in older adults, the usage of COX-inhibitors in younger adults is likely to interfere (slightly) with muscle growth. You can make the argument that extremely hard training which brings about excessive inflammation (amongst other things) could likely benefit from the use of NSAIDs like the older adults mentioned; but not sure I'd agree with it.

I think there's some comedy in the fact that one of the legitimately effective and evidence based recovery methods (+CV health management) that is typically overlooked is doing a bit of low-moderate intensity cardio.

Probably the most important thing for all of these interventions is simply the power of placebo.

[strapping]

So this is the big difference between the Western ideas vs the Eastern ideas of pharmacology. The Western idea is interested only in increasing performance, whereas the Eastern idea sees heavy training as something unhealthy that needs medical aid to do without breaking the body down. I believe personally more in the Eastern idea. Whereas in the West it's more about NoXplode and Celltech supplement ads, or take a gram of test and tren and dbol to get huge.

So I'd like some cool discussions in this thread, about pharmacology. I hope this thread is helpful.

To add to this thread in a different direction, I don't think pharmacological intervention is neccesarily the right way to address this unless prescribed by a medical professional (GP, psychiatrist etc). It's not right for a coach to prescribe anxiolytics and so on but if prescribed by a psychiatrist/GP, it is potentially an effective "recovery aide" for people who have health issues in that direction.

The closest thing to aiding recovery would be ways to decrease sympathetic nervous system activity and increase parasympathetic nervous system activity in areas outside of training, including at the end of training. Whether this is something like yoga, meditation or so on. Many of the people attracted to weightlifting as a hobby often work high stress jobs, so I think that's the biggest rock to move, besides sleep/nutrition.