https://barbend.com/2024-olympian-weigh ... eddit-ama/
It's very strange that an elite athlete trains so little. She must be an exceptional talent.
What do you think? Do you know other athletes of that level who train as "amateurs"?
Olivia Reeves training
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brian.degennaro
- Posts: 79
- Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2022 3:19 am
Re: Olivia Reeves training
Many of the ones who are not on drugs train with relatively little frequency or volume from what I have gathered. Quality trumps quantity when you do not have tons of anabolics to recover from the junk volume you can get away with (looking at you NK and Abadjiev).
Re: Olivia Reeves training
A lot of lifters are really only getting 4 serious sessions in, and the rest are, as Brian mentioned, 'junk volume'.
A lot of the lighter sessions people do could probably have the 'active recovery' component that they achieve in numerous other ways and by the sounds of it Ms Reeves does that with things like yoga sessions.
Reeves' technique is not brutal on the body, and it sounds like her coach schedules significant emphasis on strength training - we've all seen her outstanding squatting prowess. When I look at her and Maude Charon I see the model of what lifters from clean countries should be emulating. That is both men and women.
A lot of the lighter sessions people do could probably have the 'active recovery' component that they achieve in numerous other ways and by the sounds of it Ms Reeves does that with things like yoga sessions.
Reeves' technique is not brutal on the body, and it sounds like her coach schedules significant emphasis on strength training - we've all seen her outstanding squatting prowess. When I look at her and Maude Charon I see the model of what lifters from clean countries should be emulating. That is both men and women.
Re: Olivia Reeves training
I don't think it's actually that unusual. If you look back at the the old days, Tommy Kono advocated for "quality training".
For Reeves, she is progressing quite acceptably, so there shouldn't be much reason to change it. Training more could improve her results, but it could also make it worse. She mentions that she feels like 4x/week has helped her with longevity and reducing risk of injury and so on.
She's also at university I believe? I don't know what she's studying and how she finds it, but that can be a significant stressor as well.
The only thing I'd have question marks on is the fact that she "doesn't do much accessory work", but different people need differing amounts of it. Some lifters do way too much (been there done that).
A high volume of training is not necessary to optimise performance, because volume is not the primary driver of anything we are interested in for weightlifting. Don't get me wrong, sufficient volume is necessary for continued adaptations (GPP phases etc.) because you cannot drive intensity up forever. However, the volume itself is not what is driving the adaptations. It is the intensity/loading of tissues driving physiological adaptations, and number of lifts performed that positively contribute to technical adaptation driving skill improvements. Volume fills in the gaps. If you are too tired to provide appropriate intensity or to learn from the skill work you are doing, then your training is not productive.
My hypothesis regarding volume tolerance/needs is that it follows an inverted-U shaped curve for high intensity lifts, from beginner to advanced. If your ability to train is close to your ability to recover (i.e. you're peaked or plateaued), then it makes sense that you need more time to recover from sufficiently stimulating training. A sufficiently disruptive dose of training will necessarily be more stressful if you are more advanced. This is also true as a lifter gets older and/or takes on more life stress.
There are natural bodybuilders who find success with volumes as low as 3-5 sets per muscle group once per 5-7 days, and you won't find many natural bodybuilders doing much more than 10-20 sets per week as long as they're doing quality training. The same is true of weightlifting, including accessory work. Taking accessory work to 1 or zero reps in reserve, most people can have productive hypertrophy training with 3-5 sets per week (this is inclusive of squats/pulls etc.).
As a side note, the notion of "work ethic" and hustle culture is very pervasive in sport and the fitness industry. I one does not do more work then they are lazy and less worthy etc. Nonsense. You do the work that aligns with your goals, and then you move on. Why do more work than is required for a goal? She seems to have her head screwed on right, spending time outside of weightlifting in school and just kinda hanging out, living life.
For Reeves, she is progressing quite acceptably, so there shouldn't be much reason to change it. Training more could improve her results, but it could also make it worse. She mentions that she feels like 4x/week has helped her with longevity and reducing risk of injury and so on.
She's also at university I believe? I don't know what she's studying and how she finds it, but that can be a significant stressor as well.
The only thing I'd have question marks on is the fact that she "doesn't do much accessory work", but different people need differing amounts of it. Some lifters do way too much (been there done that).
A high volume of training is not necessary to optimise performance, because volume is not the primary driver of anything we are interested in for weightlifting. Don't get me wrong, sufficient volume is necessary for continued adaptations (GPP phases etc.) because you cannot drive intensity up forever. However, the volume itself is not what is driving the adaptations. It is the intensity/loading of tissues driving physiological adaptations, and number of lifts performed that positively contribute to technical adaptation driving skill improvements. Volume fills in the gaps. If you are too tired to provide appropriate intensity or to learn from the skill work you are doing, then your training is not productive.
My hypothesis regarding volume tolerance/needs is that it follows an inverted-U shaped curve for high intensity lifts, from beginner to advanced. If your ability to train is close to your ability to recover (i.e. you're peaked or plateaued), then it makes sense that you need more time to recover from sufficiently stimulating training. A sufficiently disruptive dose of training will necessarily be more stressful if you are more advanced. This is also true as a lifter gets older and/or takes on more life stress.
There are natural bodybuilders who find success with volumes as low as 3-5 sets per muscle group once per 5-7 days, and you won't find many natural bodybuilders doing much more than 10-20 sets per week as long as they're doing quality training. The same is true of weightlifting, including accessory work. Taking accessory work to 1 or zero reps in reserve, most people can have productive hypertrophy training with 3-5 sets per week (this is inclusive of squats/pulls etc.).
As a side note, the notion of "work ethic" and hustle culture is very pervasive in sport and the fitness industry. I one does not do more work then they are lazy and less worthy etc. Nonsense. You do the work that aligns with your goals, and then you move on. Why do more work than is required for a goal? She seems to have her head screwed on right, spending time outside of weightlifting in school and just kinda hanging out, living life.
Re: Olivia Reeves training
I am going to move this thread to the technical section as I think it's more appropriate.
I've come around on the idea of "efficiency" and lift ratios, where I think pushing for a certain expected level of "efficiency" could lead to more injuries via overtraining of quick lifts more than lack of capacity in the tissues.
I think technique plays a role in resistance to injury but I'm not sure it's as much as I would like to think, and there is a chicken or egg problem here.
My guess is that lifters who have minimal strength surplus are more prone to physical limitations causing inconsistency in execution at limit weights, and unexpected/uncontrolled rapid loading of tissues made worse by lack of tissue capacity.
On the other hand, I have seen lifters with truly diabolical technique who had liftime without injury issues from appropriate overall training load and a sizeable strength surplus.
However, as mentioned before, an overemphasis on heavy/slow strength with excessive volume will still bring on issues of its own (excess fatigue, overtraining etc) which can still reduce performance and increase risk of injury.
Partially related, I think having a large base of slow strength has helped with resistance to connective tissue issues like patellar and quadriceps tendinopathy.Hawkpeter wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2024 2:42 am Reeves' technique is not brutal on the body, and it sounds like her coach schedules significant emphasis on strength training - we've all seen her outstanding squatting prowess. When I look at her and Maude Charon I see the model of what lifters from clean countries should be emulating. That is both men and women.
I've come around on the idea of "efficiency" and lift ratios, where I think pushing for a certain expected level of "efficiency" could lead to more injuries via overtraining of quick lifts more than lack of capacity in the tissues.
I think technique plays a role in resistance to injury but I'm not sure it's as much as I would like to think, and there is a chicken or egg problem here.
My guess is that lifters who have minimal strength surplus are more prone to physical limitations causing inconsistency in execution at limit weights, and unexpected/uncontrolled rapid loading of tissues made worse by lack of tissue capacity.
On the other hand, I have seen lifters with truly diabolical technique who had liftime without injury issues from appropriate overall training load and a sizeable strength surplus.
However, as mentioned before, an overemphasis on heavy/slow strength with excessive volume will still bring on issues of its own (excess fatigue, overtraining etc) which can still reduce performance and increase risk of injury.
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brian.degennaro
- Posts: 79
- Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2022 3:19 am
Re: Olivia Reeves training
Even outside of weightlifting, many of the best athletes whom I know or are most confidently sure they are "clean" train relatively infrequently compared to other systems that incorporate drugs. A buddy in college who was a D1 sprinter with an official 60m and 100m times of 6.61s and 10.17s respectively, trained 3-4 days per week at maximum - outside of weekend races which may be a 5th day. When I spoke to him and his coach about their method they said that despite Charlie Francis' checkered history, he was largely correct with planning training. Generally they avoid doing consecutive CNS intensive trainings, if they are slow they skip the speed days and drill starts or tempo, skip plyos, or rest entirely. This guy also had a 220kg x 2 front squat which still blows my mind.
Regarding efficiency, I am of the mindset that it just does not matter how much anyone ever squats. Just squat, get adequate volume and intensity in (which is usually less than people think), and keep training. Some people may need a large surplus of heavy squats to improve, others not so much. I just had a lifter hit a pretty comfy 3kg clean and jerk PR at 169 (nice) and our squatting has been no more than 140-150 for 3-5 reps on back or front squat the last few months. Historically he has done 215 but that was years ago. It really does not matter so long as people are recovering from it and it is positively impacting training whether it be 20kg less than their clean and jerk or 20kg more than their clean and jerk.
Regarding efficiency, I am of the mindset that it just does not matter how much anyone ever squats. Just squat, get adequate volume and intensity in (which is usually less than people think), and keep training. Some people may need a large surplus of heavy squats to improve, others not so much. I just had a lifter hit a pretty comfy 3kg clean and jerk PR at 169 (nice) and our squatting has been no more than 140-150 for 3-5 reps on back or front squat the last few months. Historically he has done 215 but that was years ago. It really does not matter so long as people are recovering from it and it is positively impacting training whether it be 20kg less than their clean and jerk or 20kg more than their clean and jerk.
Re: Olivia Reeves training
I should be clear that having a large strength reserve is not a complete prophylaxis against connective tissue issues, but I do think it helps. I do feel (anecdotally) that having a large strength reserve does allow you to recover from training and injury more quickly/easily. This doesn't necessarily mean that you should specifically chase a huge strength surplus though. I think anyone who has trained a former powerlifter/bodybuilder can relate to this. More importantly, I feel that being particularly weak at a given performance level increases risk of injury.brian.degennaro wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2024 2:00 pm Regarding efficiency, I am of the mindset that it just does not matter how much anyone ever squats. Just squat, get adequate volume and intensity in (which is usually less than people think), and keep training. Some people may need a large surplus of heavy squats to improve, others not so much. I just had a lifter hit a pretty comfy 3kg clean and jerk PR at 169 (nice) and our squatting has been no more than 140-150 for 3-5 reps on back or front squat the last few months. Historically he has done 215 but that was years ago. It really does not matter so long as people are recovering from it and it is positively impacting training whether it be 20kg less than their clean and jerk or 20kg more than their clean and jerk.
I think there is a deceptively wide variation on how people respond to squatting, both adaptation and recovery. I would suspect Olivia Reeves simply had high base stats and/or is a high responder to squats/strength training. A friend/mentor's first lifter squatted 140/5 very easily on his first day in a gym and was subsequently only allowed to squat once a week. 300/5x5 was the usual workout, as he didn't want to surpass his coach's numbers.
I think if you have a background of heavier squats at some point in your life, you are more likely to succeed with not requiring squats above your clean and jerk. Maintaining/reacquiring strength requires relatively little volume/intensity. Building new strength requires more. For individual reasons, my best CJ and cleans were done in the backdrop of not much squatting. 3x3 @ 85-90% of clean for fronts, 90-100% of clean for backs. Did 1 set of 5 on my 100% of my clean after I was egged on and I saw death. However, I had a big surplus of leg strength prior to cutting back my squats and not much issue standing up cleans.
I think that squat numbers don't necessarily represent leg strength without additional context. Miyamoto Masanori will grind a front squat equal to his CJ in training but will stand up buried cleans. I'm guessing his squats are probably limited by fatigue during the typical training cycle, that was the case for me. Other lifters will squat a reasonable surplus but struggle to stand up cleans. That's where I think more squats is a questionably right/wrong answer depending on tolerance/recovery/adaptability to squats compared to cleans etc.
The key framing of my point on "efficiency ratios" is that if you get hung up on "I squatted 200 so i have to CJ 160" then I think people get over-eager on matching the ratio and end up in specific lift overtraining (typically through excessive frequency) which increases risk of injury
e.g. "jerk sucks, now jerk variations 5x/week" followed by "shoulder/elbow owie". Again that comes back to recovering etc.
To an extent, I let some lifters squat more weight than they strictly *need* sometimes (assuming recovery/capacity is adequate), as a broader psychological boost. The psychological/motivational aspect of coaching/programming can be helped somewhat by allowing for lifters to hit personal bests (1 or multiple reps, variations). However, it's never to the point of significantly interfering with the training of the classic lifts and the overall volume is always limited.
Re: Olivia Reeves training
https://barbend.com/olivia-reeves-2024- ... interview/
The interview is less about her training and more about her as a person/her decisions and actions. She and her coach have taken a very mature approach to this qualifying period, both in weightlifting and in life.
The interview is less about her training and more about her as a person/her decisions and actions. She and her coach have taken a very mature approach to this qualifying period, both in weightlifting and in life.
Re: Olivia Reeves training
I got sent this video from Sika Strength on the Chinese senior men team's weightlifting programming.
This is nothing new if you look at the contemporary history of Chinese men's weightlifting, but there are still people surprised that snatching twice a week, clean and jerking twice a week, squatting 2x a week and deadlifting/pulling 2-3x a week works. Not just commenters being surprised, but also athletes from other countries who train 9x a week or whatever.
Granted, the volume and intensity per exercise is very high as it usually involves working up to a near-max or maximal top set through small jumps (and backoffs for volume in strength work).
I'm not saying this is or isn't optimal, it's just that people have done this forever and it has worked. Some of the best powerlifters who literally compete in the squat trained it once or twice a week.
This is nothing new if you look at the contemporary history of Chinese men's weightlifting, but there are still people surprised that snatching twice a week, clean and jerking twice a week, squatting 2x a week and deadlifting/pulling 2-3x a week works. Not just commenters being surprised, but also athletes from other countries who train 9x a week or whatever.
Granted, the volume and intensity per exercise is very high as it usually involves working up to a near-max or maximal top set through small jumps (and backoffs for volume in strength work).
I'm not saying this is or isn't optimal, it's just that people have done this forever and it has worked. Some of the best powerlifters who literally compete in the squat trained it once or twice a week.
Re: Olivia Reeves training
There's another video by squat jerk journalist:
The frequency is low, but the volume seems high. Team Italy do the opposite, high frequency and low volume. A high number of monthly reps is useless for C. and it is characteristic of nations that use "special vitamins". In an interview C. said that the session must be short (40'), I don't remember exactly why (maybe for hormonal reasons).
The frequency is low, but the volume seems high. Team Italy do the opposite, high frequency and low volume. A high number of monthly reps is useless for C. and it is characteristic of nations that use "special vitamins". In an interview C. said that the session must be short (40'), I don't remember exactly why (maybe for hormonal reasons).